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League_Girl
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08 Oct 2020, 4:02 pm

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But I've never heard of one where it was a case of "I'm hungry, I'm gonna just kill someone.


Weren't there serial killers who would eat their victims bodies?

Hannibal I can think of.

Jeffery Dahmar.

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techstepgenr8tion
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08 Oct 2020, 4:35 pm

OP:

IMHO you're making the mistake that people are actually reasoning their way to this - they're not.

As far as I can tell the great western religion of social conformity is about game theory and social power (climbing hierarchies), not reason. Think of it as a low-level extortion racket where when you can call someone else or something they do 'not normal' you just ratcheted yourself a few clicks above them socially and you just ratcheted them down a few clicks. The whole idea of 'normal' generally speaking is about playing along with that kind of arms race.


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08 Oct 2020, 5:58 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Incest= My argument here is just as long as they are not sexually abusing their siblings and parents are not sexually abusing their children and there is no pregnancy happening in families and a parent isn't forcing their adult child to have a relationship with them, then I see nothing wrong with it.


You would just need to prove that an incestuous relationship is not harmful. Unfortunately, the research is not very extensive: Ramifications of Incest

Quote:
It has often been argued that incest between age peers (with neither partner more than 5 years older than the other) is nonabusive, mutually desired, and often consists of nothing more than experimentation. It is dubious whether this generalization will stand up to more detailed scrutiny. While such instances occur, proximity in age need not bring with it equality of power, knowledge, and sophistication. In fact, implied or actual coercion and intimidation play a role in many such situations. Many instances of sibling incest, rationalized as youthful experimentation, are profoundly exploitive.


It might also be point out that human behavior/biology reinforces the taboo against incest as sexual attraction among siblings is far from the norm. There is a biological reason for not engaging in incest because of genetic factors.

I am not sure you can simply rationalize this behavior.



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08 Oct 2020, 11:32 pm

Fnord wrote:
 
Image


I've since learned to embrace my weirdness.


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auntblabby
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09 Oct 2020, 2:55 am

mee too. :alien:



PhosphorusDecree
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09 Oct 2020, 7:03 am

League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
But I've never heard of one where it was a case of "I'm hungry, I'm gonna just kill someone.


Weren't there serial killers who would eat their victims bodies?

Hannibal I can think of.

Jeffery Dahmar.

Albert Fish


I'm talking about "societies where cannibalism is a normal part of life", rather than "cannibal criminals in societies where it is definitely not normal." In the former, there are specific occasions when it's allowed or expected, rather than it just being a murderous free-for-all.


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KT67
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09 Oct 2020, 7:17 am

I saw a video where a guy ate part of his dead son's leg as a way to remember him. The kid died in a car crash which wasn't caused by the dad. So the dad hadn't caused harm to the kid while he was alive. The kid was 17 so old enough to be out alone.

I watched it and just thought....

yuuuuuck!

But he hadn't actually done anything wrong or unethical. In fact, in a way why he did it was quite respectful - he said "I want him to always be part of me so now he's part of me".

I think it's true that "not normal" is used in order to establish hierarchies and is almost subconscious to some people. However, we as (potential?) ethicists and philosophers ought to have higher standards than that. We should analyse why we think what we think, and try to find the truth in it. There isn't truth in the generic statement "if it's abnormal, then it's automatically wrong or bad".

And some people allow the "not normal" judgements to go too far, which is one reason why it's important that we try to think of proper reasons for our objections.


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MaxE
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09 Oct 2020, 7:49 am

I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


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PhosphorusDecree
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09 Oct 2020, 8:05 am

MaxE wrote:
I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


A few years back, there was a short piece in New Scientist about a gene that raised the odds of men being gay. Or rather, it affected how strongly the person (male or female) was sexually attracted to men. They hypothesised that the gene was producing gay men while their man-crazed sisters were getting pregnant a lot.... on balance the gene survived 'cos it didn't affect the number of babies in the next generation! That's just one gene and just one study- these things should always be taken with a pinch of salt. But an interesting idea.


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KT67
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09 Oct 2020, 8:24 am

PhosphorusDecree wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


A few years back, there was a short piece in New Scientist about a gene that raised the odds of men being gay. Or rather, it affected how strongly the person (male or female) was sexually attracted to men. They hypothesised that the gene was producing gay men while their man-crazed sisters were getting pregnant a lot.... on balance the gene survived 'cos it didn't affect the number of babies in the next generation! That's just one gene and just one study- these things should always be taken with a pinch of salt. But an interesting idea.


I heard similar.

For a gay man (assuming everyone is cis), raising your niece or nephew who comes from a sister rather than a brother means you're raising someone who has your genes.

If you raise your own kid, you're doing it on the understanding it's 50% of your genes. But if you're only there at the start of the pregnancy then you can't be 100% sure. If you carry the baby, you can be 100% sure it's yours but if your contribution is sperm then someone else's sperm might have made the kid instead.

Your sister carrying the baby means it's guaranteed to have your genes because you and your sister share a mother.


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Kraichgauer
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09 Oct 2020, 4:27 pm

auntblabby wrote:
mee too. :alien:


8) 8) 8)


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09 Oct 2020, 5:09 pm

PhosphorusDecree wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


A few years back, there was a short piece in New Scientist about a gene that raised the odds of men being gay.


Largest study to date confirms overlap between autism and gender diversity



The_Face_of_Boo
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10 Oct 2020, 8:18 am

PhosphorusDecree wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


A few years back, there was a short piece in New Scientist about a gene that raised the odds of men being gay. Or rather, it affected how strongly the person (male or female) was sexually attracted to men. They hypothesised that the gene was producing gay men while their man-crazed sisters were getting pregnant a lot.... on balance the gene survived 'cos it didn't affect the number of babies in the next generation! That's just one gene and just one study- these things should always be taken with a pinch of salt. But an interesting idea.



And is there more gay men than gay women?



KT67
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10 Oct 2020, 8:50 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
PhosphorusDecree wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


A few years back, there was a short piece in New Scientist about a gene that raised the odds of men being gay. Or rather, it affected how strongly the person (male or female) was sexually attracted to men. They hypothesised that the gene was producing gay men while their man-crazed sisters were getting pregnant a lot.... on balance the gene survived 'cos it didn't affect the number of babies in the next generation! That's just one gene and just one study- these things should always be taken with a pinch of salt. But an interesting idea.



And is there more gay men than gay women?


I wonder if it's true that there's more monosexual (is that the word? Non-bi, non-pan sexual people) cis men than cis women?

In which case there would be more gay men than gay women. But only in terms of exclusively.

I've heard the stereotype that female sexuality is more fluid.

Of course, society stigmatises straight men doing things which straight women do - such as showing emotion to each other, holding hands, hugging etc. My mum's straight & monogamous and you should hear her on the phone to her platonic female friends! "Hello darling, how are you sweetheart?" etc... 8O :lol: Hardly any straight men would talk to each other like that.


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10 Oct 2020, 9:48 am

KT67 wrote:
I've heard the stereotype that female sexuality is more fluid.

As a man I was once slammed for suggesting that. Anyway, it's possible that straight men often have a culturally-imposed aversion to same-sex intimacy so that only men who are unambivalently gay indulge in it, whereas the same thing simply doesn't affect women very much. I can see other cultural trends that encourage same-sex intimacy for women for reasons of gender solidarity and within feminism there is a tendency to admire lesbians. In addition, many women who would probably otherwise be heterosexual seem to feel sexually threatened by men either due to bad personal experience or knowledge of same on the part of other women. In particular, women who grew up with any sort of disability may have been actively encouraged to have such feelings by parents or caregivers. For a concrete example of this, consider the TV program "Born This Way" in which a woman with Down Syndrome plans to get married so her parents must confess to her they lied about potential ill effects from having sex with a man; as a way to make her safe from predators when she was younger. It should be no surprise that a woman in this situation would find herself in a lesbian relationship even though left on her own might she have preferred male companionship.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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10 Oct 2020, 1:22 pm

KT67 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
PhosphorusDecree wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I wonder if there's some evolutionary advantage to the fact that a consistent percent of the population is gay. If so, then it would have to be considered normal to be gay. Sorry if this is not a direct response to the OP, but it occurred to me when considering the question.


A few years back, there was a short piece in New Scientist about a gene that raised the odds of men being gay. Or rather, it affected how strongly the person (male or female) was sexually attracted to men. They hypothesised that the gene was producing gay men while their man-crazed sisters were getting pregnant a lot.... on balance the gene survived 'cos it didn't affect the number of babies in the next generation! That's just one gene and just one study- these things should always be taken with a pinch of salt. But an interesting idea.



And is there more gay men than gay women?


I wonder if it's true that there's more monosexual (is that the word? Non-bi, non-pan sexual people) cis men than cis women?

In which case there would be more gay men than gay women. But only in terms of exclusively.

I've heard the stereotype that female sexuality is more fluid.

Of course, society stigmatises straight men doing things which straight women do - such as showing emotion to each other, holding hands, hugging etc. My mum's straight & monogamous and you should hear her on the phone to her platonic female friends! "Hello darling, how are you sweetheart?" etc... 8O :lol: Hardly any straight men would talk to each other like that.


Actually in my culture, old and middle age men do often use the words "sweetheart" and "my eyes" when they speak to other male friends in a total platonic context - despite the homophobia.

Younger generations don't do that tho, it's due to the westernization I guess.

Regarding fluidity:

Quote:
Males versus females
Research generally indicates that female sexuality is more fluid than male sexuality.[33] In a seminal review of the sexual orientation literature, stimulated by the findings that the 1970s sexual revolution affected female sexuality more so than male sexuality, research by Baumeister et al. indicated that when compared to males, females have lower concordance between sexual attitudes and behaviors, and sociocultural factors affect female sexuality to a greater degree; it also found that personal change in sexuality is more common for females compared to males.[34] Female sexuality (lesbian and heterosexual) changes significantly more than males on both dimensional and categorical measures of sexual orientation.[30] Furthermore, the majority of homosexual women who previously identified as a different sexual orientation identified as heterosexual; whereas for males, the majority previously identified as bisexual, which the authors believe support the idea of greater fluidity in female sexuality.[30] Females also report having identified with more than one sexual orientation, more often than males and are found to have higher levels of sexual orientation mobility. Females also report being bisexual or unsure of their sexuality more often than males, who more commonly report being exclusively gay or heterosexual.[35] Over a six-year period, women have also been found to display more shifts in sexual orientation identity and were more likely to define their sexual orientation with non-exclusive terms.[14]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fl ... us_females