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shlaifu
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26 Mar 2021, 5:52 pm

So, the head of the Nazi SS, Hermann Göring, had a problem: he needed his soldiers to commit atrocities during WW2.
Now, that doesn't sound much of a problem at first, but the key word here is *during*.
He was well aware that you can't create a decent society out of monsters.
He sought help from Eastern philosophy, and is known to have carried with him a leatherboung edition of the Bhagavad Gita, in which the Prince Arjuna is about to go into battle but suddenly has doubts about the rightousness of this - aren't his opponents humans, just like his troops. Many would die on either side.
However, his horsecart driver turns around and reveals himself to be the god Krishna and tells him that everything is temporary, that you can never know the outcomes of your actions, and that you have to do your duty, because there's bigger things than you can know.
Arjuna goes into battle.

That, apparently, was the philosophical answer to Göring's problem: make sure that the soldiers know that this is tempirary, that they have to do monstrous things to win the war, but not *become* monsters.

And that was very much how Germans saw themselves: as people who did their duty, even though it meant doing horrifying things, to win the war, eradicate the Jewish people, who, they believed, were truly evil, and live happily ever after.

The Nazis didn't think of themselves as evil.
Hollywood has done a great disservice to mankind, showing the villains as joyfully evil Darth Vader types.
But most people are not psychopaths. They want the best for themselves and their families and their societies, and often, they are willing to do barbaric things to achieve that -
The question now is of course, what kind of circumstances lead people to believe only temporary barabarism can save themselves, their families and their societies?


(That said: true psychpaths do exist, and war times amplify their psychopathy. Concentration camp guards are a different matter - but not all Nazis/Germans were concentration camp guards. Read up on the rape of Nanjing and unit 731, if you are looking for psychopathy. But not all Japanese people were prison guards of unit 731.
Most thought barbaric things needed to be done to save their society from evil. If the Nazis, or the Japanese Empire, had all been evil personified, monsters indeed, how come the same people could be complacent democrats, less than a decade later?)


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MidnightRose
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26 Mar 2021, 11:42 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
I don't think you understand why the German people had to go to war against the allies. The sanctions after WW1 were hurting the lives of the ordinary German people and the only way they could do anything about it was to go to war and take on the whole of Europe.

Sanctions are the modern form of a seige. People starve in seiges.


Germany did not need to go to war, they did not need to invade sovereign Poland, they did not need to execute civilians, they did not need to commit the holocaust. The war killed thousands of germans, and speaking of starving, lead to widespread food shortages in Germany. The war was a disaster for Germany. Hitler told the German people that war was necessary, but that was a lie told by the nazi party.



Tim_Tex
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27 Mar 2021, 12:30 am

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Last edited by Tim_Tex on 27 Mar 2021, 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

kitesandtrainsandcats
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27 Mar 2021, 12:43 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
All conservatives are evil

I dare you to provide the names and biographies of all conservatives and hard copy independent fully detailed documentation of each one's evilness.

And for those who say all liberals are evil I issue the same dare.

And in the interest of equality and non-prejudice, can we have someone support that all moderates are evil?
And that all independents are evil?

Aw heck, let's just drop the divisiveness and go with all humans are evil.

EDIT: oops, my bad, I left out the apolitical, the apolitical are evil for not getting political and stopping the political who are getting away with murder.


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Last edited by kitesandtrainsandcats on 27 Mar 2021, 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

kitesandtrainsandcats
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27 Mar 2021, 12:47 am

Anyway, as to the causes of WW2, this set of 2 pages sounds reasonable to me,

GI Roundtable Series

Primary source documents from 1944–46


Quote:
When the First World War ended in 1918, the victorious Allies were in a position to deal with Germany as they wished, subject to the terms of the Armistice agreement. For the German army was completely defeated and could not have offered serious military resistance to anything that the Allies might decide to do. It is certain that the Allied governments all wanted, above everything else, to prevent a future war with Germany. They did not succeed in preventing it.

Why? What did they do, or leave undone, which made it possible for things to happen in Germany that brought on another war within twenty years? On this question there are differing points of view— or there were before the present war began.


https://www.historians.org/about-aha-an ... -war-(1944)/what-was-done-after-the-last-war

And,

Quote:
What Caused Germany to Start Another War?

If it was not hardships resulting from the treaty of 1919 that caused Germany to go to war again in 1939, what was the actual cause?


https://www.historians.org/about-aha-an ... -war-(1944)/what-caused-germany-to-start-another-war


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weirdperson75000
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27 Mar 2021, 10:22 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
When the allied (British/French/Americans) won WW1, and made European countries liberal democracies, it was all in vain.

Then the German population CHOSE dictatorship and evilness again. Then then the allied won WW2 and made European countries liberal democracies once again, it too was all in vain.

The fact is, that AFD in Germany is rising in popularity amongst the common german population. Elsewhere in other european countries, other similar fascist-minded parties are very popular. Take a look at Poland's goverment, or the Hungarian government.

People hate the weak, the disabled and the sick/poor. This is why we have capitalism, because most people don't like welfare. Most people despise of the thought of welfare.

The only reason many European countries have welfare states, is not because the people chose it. It is actually a miracle, only possible because of a political elite who is somewhat still in power despite the fact that the majority of the population hate the government.


You are conflating being far-right / extreme right and being against the Welfare State.

For instance, in France, many former working-class communists support Marine Le Pen and her party Le Rassemblement National. Besides, Marine Le Pen actually criticizes free Market and does support the Welfare State (free health care, workers rights, etc)



CockneyRebel
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28 Mar 2021, 6:50 pm

There is bad and good in every country. Each country has a checkered past.


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