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MaxE
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26 Dec 2021, 3:04 pm

shlaifu wrote:
MaxE wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
have you considered that being a threat to the democracy you describe here might be the very reaction this democracy necessarily creates? It sounds like your system desperately requires reform while being utterly unreformable.

By "threat to democracy" I meant the government coming under control of a fascist régime led by Donald Trump. To me it sounds like you are talking about a radical change in the form of government, in which the current constitution would be replaced. That isn't what I meant by a "threat". The US could easily become a fascist state without changing a single word in the constitution.


oh, yes, yes. Hitler was voted into power in a democratic election, while conservatives were screaming that socialists are a threat to democracy.
It looks like the options are "Bideness as usual", "Trump fascism" and "Bernie reform".
And you are suggesting that "Bideness as usual" is somehow sustainable and will not lead to "Trump fascism"...? And the threat of "Bernie revolution" is fuelling the Trump fascism?

This does not accurately recapitulate what I was saying but I expect any attempt to explain leads down a rabbit hole.


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funeralxempire
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26 Dec 2021, 3:11 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Our democracy was subverted decades ago, so there isn't anything left to protect.




you're the textbook example of what Max is talking about, and you just proved his point.

You are an actual "Bernie Boy" who denies the existence of democracy itself- thereby threatening the existence of democracy by (a)advocating the violent overthrow of the government (just like Trump cultists), but (b) unlike Trump cultist you are so politically narcissistic that you dont even REALIZE that you advocate the violent overthrow of the government. The opinions I have seen you post on this site make no sense...unless you want a violent overthrow of the government. But you never admit that violent overthrow is what you want.

And BTW democracy does to a degree still exist in the US. If it didnt the GOP wouldnt be striving so hard to suppress votes like it is.

Max (the original poster) can now rest his case.


I don't mean to dunk on you, but you might want to reflect on how incorrect your framing of VeggieMan and his views is and how that incorrect premise has lead to the incorrect conclusions. :nerdy:


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txfz1
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26 Dec 2021, 3:25 pm

MaxE wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
have you considered that being a threat to the democracy you describe here might be the very reaction this democracy necessarily creates? It sounds like your system desperately requires reform while being utterly unreformable.

By "threat to democracy" I meant the government coming under control of a fascist régime led by Donald Trump. To me it sounds like you are talking about a radical change in the form of government, in which the current constitution would be replaced. That isn't what I meant by a "threat". The US could easily become a fascist state without changing a single word in the constitution.


Are removing the filibuster and expanding the supreme court threats to democracy or just radical changes that need to happen?



MaxE
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26 Dec 2021, 4:17 pm

txfz1 wrote:
MaxE wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
have you considered that being a threat to the democracy you describe here might be the very reaction this democracy necessarily creates? It sounds like your system desperately requires reform while being utterly unreformable.

By "threat to democracy" I meant the government coming under control of a fascist régime led by Donald Trump. To me it sounds like you are talking about a radical change in the form of government, in which the current constitution would be replaced. That isn't what I meant by a "threat". The US could easily become a fascist state without changing a single word in the constitution.


Are removing the filibuster and expanding the supreme court threats to democracy or just radical changes that need to happen?

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If your objective is to give the Democrats more power, this might work in the short run. I think in the long run it would backfire, because a.) packing the Supreme Court would leave a bad taste in many peoples' mouths including many who are not hard-core Republicans and b.) the Republican Party will regain control of the House and Senate in a year and then they will benefit from removing the filibuster, and they will have many more years in this position than the brief year the Democrats would have to gain from it.

From what I have seen, many on WP, perhaps most who are active on PP&R, do not look kindly on Biden, and even if they don't necessarily like Trump they may see him as the lesser of two evils. So answering your question from the context of those peoples' way of thinking is like walking through a minefield. Many of them see Biden and his policies as the exact opposite of "democracy".

To repeat myself, when I talk about a "threat to democracy" I mean the rise of Fascism by way of Trump's rise to power. A lot of people think that whole concept is nonsense but I wouldn't know how to debate with them.


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26 Dec 2021, 5:28 pm

What's it say about America that the generic democratic socialist calling for reform through the system can be treated as as much of a threat to democracy as the guy who calls the press the enemy of the people and incites a mob to "encourage" congress to not call the election for his opponent? If Bernie is a threat to democracy, then there are thousands of socialist threats to democracy in Europe who.....work within a democratic framework every single day.

Once Bernie starts calling for us to violently seize the means of production, then we can talk. Both-sides-ism gets less and less tenable as a position with each passing day.

Our European members should be concerned that one of the few political voices advocating for things like universal healthcare is being demonized as much as a man like Trump. Trump could shoot someone in the street and people would still act like he's barely worse than Bernie--because he is a capitalist and a nationalist. This is what happens when socialists are politically marginalized.


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txfz1
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26 Dec 2021, 6:24 pm

MaxE wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
MaxE wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
have you considered that being a threat to the democracy you describe here might be the very reaction this democracy necessarily creates? It sounds like your system desperately requires reform while being utterly unreformable.

By "threat to democracy" I meant the government coming under control of a fascist régime led by Donald Trump. To me it sounds like you are talking about a radical change in the form of government, in which the current constitution would be replaced. That isn't what I meant by a "threat". The US could easily become a fascist state without changing a single word in the constitution.


Are removing the filibuster and expanding the supreme court threats to democracy or just radical changes that need to happen?

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If your objective is to give the Democrats more power, this might work in the short run. I think in the long run it would backfire, because a.) packing the Supreme Court would leave a bad taste in many peoples' mouths including many who are not hard-core Republicans and b.) the Republican Party will regain control of the House and Senate in a year and then they will benefit from removing the filibuster, and they will have many more years in this position than the brief year the Democrats would have to gain from it.

From what I have seen, many on WP, perhaps most who are active on PP&R, do not look kindly on Biden, and even if they don't necessarily like Trump they may see him as the lesser of two evils. So answering your question from the context of those peoples' way of thinking is like walking through a minefield. Many of them see Biden and his policies as the exact opposite of "democracy".

To repeat myself, when I talk about a "threat to democracy" I mean the rise of Fascism by way of Trump's rise to power. A lot of people think that whole concept is nonsense but I wouldn't know how to debate with them.


Then we may be agreeing as I did see it as a threat to democracy by the dems allowing and voicing approval of the "mostly peaceful" protests which I consider a rise in fascism.



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26 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm

txfz1 wrote:
Then we may be agreeing as I did see it as a threat to democracy by the dems allowing and voicing approval of the "mostly peaceful" protests which I consider a rise in fascism.

Which dems? Which protests?


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26 Dec 2021, 8:13 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
What's it say about America that the generic democratic socialist calling for reform through the system can be treated as as much of a threat to democracy as the guy who calls the press the enemy of the people and incites a mob to "encourage" congress to not call the election for his opponent? If Bernie is a threat to democracy, then there are thousands of socialist threats to democracy in Europe who.....work within a democratic framework every single day.


I have nothing against Bernie and I support much of his agenda. My problem is with Bernie Bros destroying the only effective opposition to Trump that we have.


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29 Dec 2021, 1:14 am

funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Our democracy was subverted decades ago, so there isn't anything left to protect.




you're the textbook example of what Max is talking about, and you just proved his point.

You are an actual "Bernie Boy" who denies the existence of democracy itself- thereby threatening the existence of democracy by (a)advocating the violent overthrow of the government (just like Trump cultists), but (b) unlike Trump cultist you are so politically narcissistic that you dont even REALIZE that you advocate the violent overthrow of the government. The opinions I have seen you post on this site make no sense...unless you want a violent overthrow of the government. But you never admit that violent overthrow is what you want.

And BTW democracy does to a degree still exist in the US. If it didnt the GOP wouldnt be striving so hard to suppress votes like it is.

Max (the original poster) can now rest his case.


I don't mean to dunk on you, but you might want to reflect on how incorrect your framing of VeggieMan and his views is and how that incorrect premise has lead to the incorrect conclusions. :nerdy:


Where was I "incorrect"?

Veg himself confirmed everything I said about what he believes.



funeralxempire
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29 Dec 2021, 1:42 am

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Our democracy was subverted decades ago, so there isn't anything left to protect.




you're the textbook example of what Max is talking about, and you just proved his point.

You are an actual "Bernie Boy" who denies the existence of democracy itself- thereby threatening the existence of democracy by (a)advocating the violent overthrow of the government (just like Trump cultists), but (b) unlike Trump cultist you are so politically narcissistic that you dont even REALIZE that you advocate the violent overthrow of the government. The opinions I have seen you post on this site make no sense...unless you want a violent overthrow of the government. But you never admit that violent overthrow is what you want.

And BTW democracy does to a degree still exist in the US. If it didnt the GOP wouldnt be striving so hard to suppress votes like it is.

Max (the original poster) can now rest his case.


I don't mean to dunk on you, but you might want to reflect on how incorrect your framing of VeggieMan and his views is and how that incorrect premise has lead to the incorrect conclusions. :nerdy:


Where was I "incorrect"?

Veg himself confirmed everything I said about what he believes.


Well, for starters someone who's views are that radical isn't a Bernie Bro, one would need to be supportive of Sanders and the system he operates within to be a Bernie Bro, no?


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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29 Dec 2021, 2:16 am

funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Our democracy was subverted decades ago, so there isn't anything left to protect.




you're the textbook example of what Max is talking about, and you just proved his point.

You are an actual "Bernie Boy" who denies the existence of democracy itself- thereby threatening the existence of democracy by (a)advocating the violent overthrow of the government (just like Trump cultists), but (b) unlike Trump cultist you are so politically narcissistic that you dont even REALIZE that you advocate the violent overthrow of the government. The opinions I have seen you post on this site make no sense...unless you want a violent overthrow of the government. But you never admit that violent overthrow is what you want.

And BTW democracy does to a degree still exist in the US. If it didnt the GOP wouldnt be striving so hard to suppress votes like it is.

Max (the original poster) can now rest his case.


I don't mean to dunk on you, but you might want to reflect on how incorrect your framing of VeggieMan and his views is and how that incorrect premise has lead to the incorrect conclusions. :nerdy:


Where was I "incorrect"?

Veg himself confirmed everything I said about what he believes.


Well, for starters someone who's views are that radical isn't a Bernie Bro, one would need to be supportive of Sanders and the system he operates within to be a Bernie Bro, no?


Well...I admit that I was purposely being provocative ...precisely TO get Veggie to lay his cards on the table. I knew full well that he didnt really support Sanders, nor ANY actual politician who could ever exist in the real world...except for Trump. Lol!

But you're right he is not exactly a Bernie Bro.

And what I actually said was "your views make no sense UNLESS you want a violent over throw...".

He replied that he was against a violent overthrow, and for public demonstrations... the tiny percent of the population who share his radical beliefs are going to accomplish anything with "public demonstrations". He might as well have said "YES...you're right. My views do not make any sense". :lol:



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29 Dec 2021, 10:28 am

^It would be nice if you understood how the type of movements I'm talking about have led to positive changes, like the new deal in the 1930s.

You might want to study history a little more, since it will give you a better understanding of where we are, currently, and how we got here.

I supported Sanders in 2016, but gave up on him, largely because he sold out to the corporate Dems too many times, plus he isnt a strong enough opponent of the war machine.


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29 Dec 2021, 10:34 am

MaxE wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Seems like a strong statement to make without any argument whatsoever to substantiate it.
Do you have a good argument to rebut? ...
The claim in your subject line is like comparing cyanide to arsenic.  No rebuttal from me.



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29 Dec 2021, 10:35 am

MaxE wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
Then we may be agreeing as I did see it as a threat to democracy by the dems allowing and voicing approval of the "mostly peaceful" protests which I consider a rise in fascism.

Which dems? Which protests?


The VP on down the line, she supported a bail fund for the protesters and it was a whole summer of love in seattle, portland, etc. Are you really this blind to current events?



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29 Dec 2021, 10:40 am

txfz1 wrote:
MaxE wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
Then we may be agreeing as I did see it as a threat to democracy by the dems allowing and voicing approval of the "mostly peaceful" protests which I consider a rise in fascism.
Which dems? Which protests?
The VP on down the line, she supported a bail fund for the protesters and it was a whole summer of love in seattle, portland, etc. Are you really this blind to current events?
Does it really matter if you are doing nothing about it?



MaxE
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29 Dec 2021, 12:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
MaxE wrote:
txfz1 wrote:
Then we may be agreeing as I did see it as a threat to democracy by the dems allowing and voicing approval of the "mostly peaceful" protests which I consider a rise in fascism.
Which dems? Which protests?
The VP on down the line, she supported a bail fund for the protesters and it was a whole summer of love in seattle, portland, etc. Are you really this blind to current events?
Does it really matter if you are doing nothing about it?

Is this the Oathkeepers or the Proud Boys? I don't see any evidence the Dems are giving any aid and comfort to that trash. Please explain?


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