Difficult question - Ukraine vs Iraq
It was USSR.
They've gone a long way in the right direction.
True. But we're not getting the full truth from our media.
Don't be ridiculous.
The media is beyond reproach. <satire>
I'm yet to meet someone who knows all truth to give it to any media... but streaming time is limited by human life so it wouldn't work anyway.
Sure there are biases, pressures and particular interests. But the level we're talking about in case of Russia is outright lies and jail for anyone who claims otherwise.
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Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
Sure there are biases, pressures and particular interests. But the level we're talking about in case of Russia is outright lies and jail for anyone who claims otherwise.
There are varying levels of corruption and evil. But it doesn't serve anyone in this world to ignore the lesser offenses. We're dealing with governments who are invested in maintaining a system that only benefits the rich and powerful.
I guess what I'm saying is we have attack it all, not just the worst examples of authoritarianism.
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Oscar Meyer Lansky
Russia has been occupying parts of Ukraine for eight years.
Banning TV news from promoting the interests of an occupying army is not unusual in democracies. I would rather the decision was made by a regulator outside of political influence, like Ofcom in Britain, but to act as if this disqualifies Ukraine from being a democracy, well, I don't think that's rational.
historically, the US hasn't cared an awful lot whether a government was democratocally elected or a dictatorship - and has instated dictators as long as they joined the economic world order led by the US.
And: it is difficult to argue whether the characteristovs of a government should make much difference anyway, considering the people of a country are not its government, but those that will suffer.
so: the difference between Ukraine and Iraq is that Iraq was "other", Ukraine is "us"(-ish), at least compared to Russia.
Oh, and: don't forget Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and the extrajudicial killings by drone strike under Obama.
But, even if Europe wanted to: it's a bit hard to sanction the US, after all, the US are the military and economic hegemon in this hemisphere. They call the shots.
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I can read facial expressions. I did the test.
I have given this a lot of thought, because it does bother me on at least some levels that we (US) have virtually ignored so many conflicts going on around the world in which people are murdered, starving and otherwise tortured, but are intensely involved in Russia's attack on Ukraine.
Part of it is, I believe, that we (US) see Ukrainians as more "us" than people in underdeveloped countries. (Racist, yes.) Certainly Europe sees Ukraine as European. Europeans have been allies of the US, in general, for some 200 years.
But the deciding factor for me and my interest is that Russia has nuclear bombs and is likely willing to use them. I don't see Putin as rational and in order to work, MAD requires all parties be rational. Nuclear bombs have the potential to destroy many more lives and innocent, uninvolved lives, (and poison the earth for decades or hundreds of years) than a conflict in, say, the Sudan. (Just an example, not wanting to go into that war.)
Growing up under the cloud of nuclear war, I'm not sure that those folks younger than my generation really feel the nuclear threat in their guts the way we do.
I don't believe that just because country A did X, that country B gets a pass at doing X. That is elementary school reasoning. (Johnny didn't get punished and he did it too!) How is a war started by Putin justified because some other country started a war in the past?
For the record, I think the wars waged on Iraq by the US were wrong and I was opposed to these wars. I was opposed to the Vietnam War as well.
I don't see Putin's actions toward Ukraine as analygous to the Cuban Missle Crisis. Khrushchev was not Putin. Or perhaps it should be phrased, Putin is no Krushchev.
As I read Walrus and DW, these sound like accurate, rational explanations for the difference between the two wars.
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The river is the melody
And sky is the refrain - Gordon Lightfoot
Sure there are biases, pressures and particular interests. But the level we're talking about in case of Russia is outright lies and jail for anyone who claims otherwise.
What totalitarian government has credibility in telling the Truth?
I am seriously interested if anyone can name one.
I am seriously interested if anyone can name one.
That's a slippery slope because everyone (including every government) has things they'd prefer not to disclose...
I'd propose sorting evils and dangers by weight and adress the greatest first - then go down to smaller ones once the bigger ones are dealth with.
Okay, we can add proximity as another factor for sorting.
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Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
I am seriously interested if anyone can name one.
That's a slippery slope because everyone (including every government) has things they'd prefer not to disclose...
I'd propose sorting evils and dangers by weight and adress the greatest first - then go down to smaller ones once the bigger ones are dealth with.
Okay, we can add proximity as another factor for sorting.
Both Russia and China have zero credibility, in my book.
It surprises me that some people take what China says seriously.
It beggars belief.
I have had more experience listening to China's nonsense than Russia's, btw.
Am i the only one who remembers the entire world seeing the leader of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, as a saddistic warlord far more similar to Kim Jong Um than to Zelinsky? Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. Zelinsky hasn't done anything similar. Do we need to mix in racial or ethnic considerations, the "other", when the tyrannical differences in leaders is so obvious? Or have I been sold a false impression of Saddam Hussein all my life?
The USA government obviously had far too much ego and imperialism in its head while invading Iraq, and didn't plan for the power vacuum it was creating, but I saw Iraqi's cheering the invasion and toppling of Hussein. I'm not seeing Ukrainians cheer invasion by Russia. Or, again, was I lied to?
I remember the invasion. I remember the war. I remember the debates and the sentiments. It was NOTHING like this.
Either I was lied to, or most posters here aren't remembering what it was really like back then.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Part of it is, I believe, that we (US) see Ukrainians as more "us" than people in underdeveloped countries. (Racist, yes.) Certainly Europe sees Ukraine as European. Europeans have been allies of the US, in general, for some 200 years.
But the deciding factor for me and my interest is that Russia has nuclear bombs and is likely willing to use them. I don't see Putin as rational and in order to work, MAD requires all parties be rational. Nuclear bombs have the potential to destroy many more lives and innocent, uninvolved lives, (and poison the earth for decades or hundreds of years) than a conflict in, say, the Sudan. (Just an example, not wanting to go into that war.)
Growing up under the cloud of nuclear war, I'm not sure that those folks younger than my generation really feel the nuclear threat in their guts the way we do.
I don't believe that just because country A did X, that country B gets a pass at doing X. That is elementary school reasoning. (Johnny didn't get punished and he did it too!) How is a war started by Putin justified because some other country started a war in the past?
For the record, I think the wars waged on Iraq by the US were wrong and I was opposed to these wars. I was opposed to the Vietnam War as well.
I don't see Putin's actions toward Ukraine as analygous to the Cuban Missle Crisis. Khrushchev was not Putin. Or perhaps it should be phrased, Putin is no Krushchev.
As I read Walrus and DW, these sound like accurate, rational explanations for the difference between the two wars.
I share your concern about how we’ve taken relatively standoffish approaches to a lot of recent conflicts around the world. Where was the equivalent backlash against the Rohingya genocide? Biden sanctions Myanmar over the coup, but Trump basically ignored the genocide and it goes unmentioned in Biden’s sanctions.
To be fair, the Americans do have a pretty robust sanctions regime in general. But the sanctions against Russia have gone much further than the sanctions against China over Hong Kong, or the sanctions against Ethiopia over Tigray and Eritrea.
As others have noted, there is the general idea that Ukraine is “like us”, particularly for US allies in Eastern Europe. But more importantly, I think the sanctions have been harder than on Ethiopia because Russia is a powerful country and Ethiopia is not. Hong Kong, whether we like it or not, was ultimately an internal issue, like the Uighur genocide or the conflict in Chechnya. While we do intervene in internal affairs sometimes (Libya, Sierra Leone), we’re generally slow to do so. It’s only when international borders are crossed that the hammer swings at full force.
RetroGamer87
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So we're going to invade every dictatorship and remove their dictator, right? /s
The fact that many other dictatorships get left alone (or sometimes even get supported) leads me to believe that the motivation for invading Iraq was not to topple the dictator.
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The days are long, but the years are short
So we're going to invade every dictatorship and remove their dictator, right? /s
The fact that many other dictatorships get left alone (or sometimes even get supported) leads me to believe that the motivation for invading Iraq was not to topple the dictator.
Many believe the motivation with Iraq was personal. The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq was on Bush Sr's watch; the invasion of Iraq by the US was on Bush Jr's watch. From the start of Bush Jr's presidency, many believed an invasion was inevitable, that all Bush Jr. needed was something to hang his hat on. The perceived breach of the nuclear arms deal was the hook to hang his hat on.
That concept of looking for an excuse is something both invasions do have in common.
But the facts of the Iraqi situation at the time of invasion remain a stark contrast to the situation in the Ukraine, and the original debate point was comparing just those two. To ignore all those clear differences is an ignorance of history, IMHO.
So, no, we're not going into every dictatorship to take them out.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
The US didn’t want a Soviet allied state on its border so tried to over throw the Castro gov
I was against the Iraq war just as I’m against the war in Ukraine
Without going into details of the Bay of Pigs, I don't see a lot of parallels. Although it took place 200 years ago, the War of 1812 was probably more similar.
It's my theory the world would be more peaceful today had the US not led the Desert Storm invasion of Iraq after Iraq annexed Kuwait. One could argue that Iraq had a valid claim on Kuwait plus consider that borders in that region were drawn by British imperialists.
Feel free to speculate as to how the world would be a worse place now had Desert Storm not happened.
