Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Is our education failing us?

Page 2 of 4 [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

10 Apr 2022, 11:49 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Folks dont retain things. And the education system stresses different little facts over others over time. Even folks with degrees from earlier generations (the good old days before things supposedly went down hill) can be boneheaded.

When I was like ten mom would tell me that "it was said that Christ and Mohammed met. One time actually met and talked to each other! They lived at about the same time, so its possible, and it is said that at one time they met and conversed." Several times I heard her say that. I would imagine each being followed by an entrourage of followers. And they cross paths in the Mideast desert somewhere. And the two of them having a nice chat while both of their respective crowds of followers look on in approval. She heard it at some lecture she went to. And found it fascinating - and she would spout the story with good intentions -to promote ecumenicism and religous tolerence- several times. But it would annoy the heck outta me -even as as grade school kid. Finnally when I was like eleven or twelve I finnally asked her "how the heck could the two of them have met? They lived almost 700 years apart? And NOT at about the 'same time'. Thats like saying Shakespeare was influenced by Steven Speilberg because they lived at about the same time." Okay -I didnt actually SAY that last part. But shouldve.

I never heard her repeat the story again after that. She probably looked it up, and found out that I was right. lol!

People can often be woefully ignorant. I think it's important to be in touch with facts and knowledge of the world. How you interpret those things are entirely up to you.



QuantumChemist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,111
Location: Midwest

10 Apr 2022, 11:57 am

Is our education failing us? The true answer is both a yes and no. You really get out of your education what you put into learning and what you decide to learn. If you consume only junk food for your brain, your brain will become full of junk. Sad to say, I know PhDs in my area of science who are that way.



The_Walrus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

11 Apr 2022, 2:29 am

AngelRho wrote:

What concerns me about these discussions is the suggestion that theology or faith is compelled to change because of fossils and the age of the earth. This is Galileo-level foolishness. I’m amused that unbelievers get so caught up in things that are only debates among Christians, and I’m not sure it's even a debate that ever accomplishes anything positive.

I've seen lots of people evoke Galileo as evidence that their kooky beliefs might be right, but you're evoking Galileo to defend... evidence-free Young Earth Creationism?

That's the exact opposite of Galileo, who was persecuted by the church for disproving geocentrism.

The difference between faith and science is that with science you can check the working. You can read all the relevant scientific papers if you wish to verify the truth for yourself - you can even attempt to falisfy the claims, although that's more involved. With religion there's none of that. There's no reason to believe religious claims are true, and no way to verify people's own claims. It is sometimes possible to falsify claims like the age of the Earth, or geocentrism, and when those claims are falsified, an intelligent person would change their mind rather than continuing to believe lies.

Of course we could all be brains in jars being fed hallucinations. But that's not helpful for actually living our lives. Better to assume the world obeys predictable physical laws and try to find out more about them. We can test the limits of our eyes and our reason and find out more about the world we are living in, or we can just make up whatever the hell we want... but only one of those is going to actually help us.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

11 Apr 2022, 2:49 am

AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:

What concerns me about these discussions is the suggestion that theology or faith is compelled to change because of fossils and the age of the earth. This is Galileo-level foolishness. I’m amused that unbelievers get so caught up in things that are only debates among Christians, and I’m not sure it's even a debate that ever accomplishes anything positive.

This paragraph does not make any sense. you're saying, or seem to be saying, that Atheists make fossils a theological issue. It religious fundamentalists who make it an issue, and who force everyone who is not a Fundie (including atheists) into responding.



Fireblossom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,588

11 Apr 2022, 4:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
If we're talking about a very religious person who doesn't believe in evolution, it's possible that the person's religious circles have "taught" them that what they teach at schools about fossils and evolution isn't actually true and that the truth is whatever the religious community teaches. So it might not be a matter of not listening in school or the teaching there being bad, but a matter of the person believing wrong people despite being taught by professionals before.

He said that everyone else in the room, including the non YECs, and even Atheists, had the same misconception.


...Yeah, looks like it. Apparently I wasn't paying enough attention when reading it the first time; should've read it with more thought.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,185
Location: Adelaide, Australia

11 Apr 2022, 4:55 am

Fireblossom wrote:
If we're talking about a very religious person who doesn't believe in evolution, it's possible that the person's religious circles have "taught" them that what they teach at schools about fossils and evolution isn't actually true and that the truth is whatever the religious community teaches.

Yes he said "only dishonest scientists say fossils are millions of years old".

The trouble was he was trying to that creationism is true because science supports it. He had various arguments about how science supports creationism through the first law of thermodynamics and the law of biogenesis.

But if he thinks that some scientists are being dishonest why should trust the first law of thermodynamics and the law of biogenesis just because a scientist said it?

He was using an authoritarian argument, "It's true because science says". I said if his proof that YEC is true is that scientists say it's true but he's already weeded out all the scientists who don't support it as "dishonest" then it's an example of special pleading. All his proven is that he's selected scientists who support his ideas.

He kept saying "science supports creation". He seemed to be under the impression that the majority of scientists are YECs and that the ones who believe in evolution are just a small fringe group of scientists (not the first time I've encountered that view).


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


munstead
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2022
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 845
Location: Standing behind you

11 Apr 2022, 5:02 am

wee dont need know edgeyoukayshon.



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

11 Apr 2022, 6:44 am

The_Walrus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:

What concerns me about these discussions is the suggestion that theology or faith is compelled to change because of fossils and the age of the earth. This is Galileo-level foolishness. I’m amused that unbelievers get so caught up in things that are only debates among Christians, and I’m not sure it's even a debate that ever accomplishes anything positive.

I've seen lots of people evoke Galileo as evidence that their kooky beliefs might be right, but you're evoking Galileo to defend... evidence-free Young Earth Creationism?

That's the exact opposite of Galileo, who was persecuted by the church for disproving geocentrism.

The difference between faith and science is that with science you can check the working. You can read all the relevant scientific papers if you wish to verify the truth for yourself - you can even attempt to falisfy the claims, although that's more involved. With religion there's none of that. There's no reason to believe religious claims are true, and no way to verify people's own claims. It is sometimes possible to falsify claims like the age of the Earth, or geocentrism, and when those claims are falsified, an intelligent person would change their mind rather than continuing to believe lies.

Of course we could all be brains in jars being fed hallucinations. But that's not helpful for actually living our lives. Better to assume the world obeys predictable physical laws and try to find out more about them. We can test the limits of our eyes and our reason and find out more about the world we are living in, or we can just make up whatever the hell we want... but only one of those is going to actually help us.

Ummm…that’s not what I meant at all. Wow.

Galileo got in trouble for insisting that the church revisit theology by bending church doctrine around what he saw through a telescope. Galileo’s discovery was a first-of-its kind thing, meaning it had not yet endured the rigors of scientific investigation. The Catholic Church ultimately agreed that his discovery helped gain insight into what was meant in the Psalms as an artistic expression regarding creation and that no church position was meaningfully challenged. The Catholic Church also maintained high standards of research and academic integrity.

Galileo was wrong on a number of levels: his lack of tact approaching religious authorities, his description of planetary orbits as being perfect circles, and his unqualified intrusion into church matters.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,185
Location: Adelaide, Australia

11 Apr 2022, 6:48 am

I've always found it strange that the church got so attached to what some ancient greek philosophers said about how the planets move. They weren't even Christian.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

11 Apr 2022, 6:48 am

naturalplastic wrote:
This paragraph does not make any sense. you're saying, or seem to be saying, that Atheists make fossils a theological issue. It religious fundamentalists who make it an issue, and who force everyone who is not a Fundie (including atheists) into responding.

Less fossils, more age of the earth. The only people who care are Christians, not unbelievers. It’s a matter of whether the age of the earth is theologically relevant. What does it change if the earth is thousands of years old or billions of years? Why is it so important?



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

11 Apr 2022, 6:52 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
I've always found it strange that the church got so attached to what some ancient greek philosophers said about how the planets move. They weren't even Christian.

I think it’s just human arrogance. One point the Bible makes us that the universe is God-centric. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to a Christian that whole universe doesn’t revolve around us, yet somehow a geocentric universe was the dominant view for so long.



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

11 Apr 2022, 6:55 am

AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I've always found it strange that the church got so attached to what some ancient greek philosophers said about how the planets move. They weren't even Christian.

I think it’s just human arrogance. One point the Bible makes us that the universe is God-centric. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to a Christian that whole universe doesn’t revolve around us, yet somehow a geocentric universe was the dominant view for so long.

Oh…and that the view predates Christ doesn’t make it any better. That’s one you can’t blame on backwards-thinking Christians. However, it does expose some problems in Christian thinking.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

11 Apr 2022, 11:44 am

AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
This paragraph does not make any sense. you're saying, or seem to be saying, that Atheists make fossils a theological issue. It religious fundamentalists who make it an issue, and who force everyone who is not a Fundie (including atheists) into responding.

Less fossils, more age of the earth. The only people who care are Christians, not unbelievers. It’s a matter of whether the age of the earth is theologically relevant. What does it change if the earth is thousands of years old or billions of years? Why is it so important?


Its YECs who pick the fight with everyone else by creating a whole industry devoted to evolution-denial. Atheists arent picking the fight. Its YECs who intrude into science. Not athiests intruding into Christian debate.

Knowledge is indivisible. Knowing the Earth is billions of years old and not just thousands of years old - is like knowing the USA is three thousand miles long, and not just fifteen feet long. Kinda important in many ways- even if those ways are indirect.



shortfatbalduglyman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,572

11 Apr 2022, 12:06 pm

Not all schools teach the same thing

Even two different instructors in the same school teach different things

Some people with advanced degrees such as PhD, do not even know how to say "excuse me" instead of "huh" and "what"

A community college Nutrition instructor put an exclamation point after the number four

And et cetera

"Our education system" is too ambiguous

Which education system?

The people that you wrote about in your post, might not ever have gone to school in the same country as you



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

11 Apr 2022, 12:29 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
This paragraph does not make any sense. you're saying, or seem to be saying, that Atheists make fossils a theological issue. It religious fundamentalists who make it an issue, and who force everyone who is not a Fundie (including atheists) into responding.

Less fossils, more age of the earth. The only people who care are Christians, not unbelievers. It’s a matter of whether the age of the earth is theologically relevant. What does it change if the earth is thousands of years old or billions of years? Why is it so important?


Its YECs who pick the fight with everyone else by creating a whole industry devoted to evolution-denial. Atheists arent picking the fight. Its YECs who intrude into science. Not athiests intruding into Christian debate.

Knowledge is indivisible. Knowing the Earth is billions of years old and not just thousands of years old - is like knowing the USA is three thousand miles long, and not just fifteen feet long. Kinda important in many ways- even if those ways are indirect.

Bolded text is exactly my point. Not all Christians hold that view. Probably most Christians don’t even really care how old the earth is.

My thing is this: I wasn’t there when God created everything. So I have no idea how He did it or how long took. No one alive can make any better claims than I can. The whole argument is useless.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,185
Location: Adelaide, Australia

11 Apr 2022, 4:59 pm

AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
This paragraph does not make any sense. you're saying, or seem to be saying, that Atheists make fossils a theological issue. It religious fundamentalists who make it an issue, and who force everyone who is not a Fundie (including atheists) into responding.

Less fossils, more age of the earth. The only people who care are Christians, not unbelievers. It’s a matter of whether the age of the earth is theologically relevant. What does it change if the earth is thousands of years old or billions of years? Why is it so important?

Its YECs who pick the fight with everyone else by creating a whole industry devoted to evolution-denial. Atheists arent picking the fight. Its YECs who intrude into science. Not athiests intruding into Christian debate.

Knowledge is indivisible. Knowing the Earth is billions of years old and not just thousands of years old - is like knowing the USA is three thousand miles long, and not just fifteen feet long. Kinda important in many ways- even if those ways are indirect.

Bolded text is exactly my point. Not all Christians hold that view. Probably most Christians don’t even really care how old the earth is.

Most Christians don't really even care about the answer to a major scientific question? Why would you want to insult Christians by suggesting most of them don't take an interest in science?

Then again, there are plenty of atheists with no interest in science. Like the ones in my opening post. After I started this thread we encountered someone who actually did know what fossilization was and tore the creationist a new one. All the creationist could do was say "no, I'm talking about soft tissue, therefore it can't be stone".
But soft tissue can be lithified. See link for example.

AngelRho wrote:
My thing is this: I wasn’t there when God created everything. So I have no idea how He did it or how long took. No one alive can make any better claims than I can. The whole argument is useless.

Then it's a good thing there are people with expertise in measuring the age of things. They can measure they age of the creation.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short