"Groomer" is such a gross word omg

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12 Oct 2023, 8:33 am

magz wrote:

This would be a somewhat different situation, in that most mainstream people would immediately recognize this as a rhetorical exaggeration.

There is a greater chance that mainstream people will be fooled by anti-gay and anti-trans panic-mongering, because the latter are traditionally stigmatized categories to begin with.

magz wrote:

Communication is already hard enough for us. Let's not make it even harder by demanding constant shifts of meanings.

Okay, but what do you think of the idea of disclaimers (in legit sources on "grooming") as an alternative to changing the terminology?

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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 12 Oct 2023, 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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12 Oct 2023, 8:36 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

I was a special education teacher until recently.

How recently?

I quit 6 months ago.

Quote:

During my entire adult life at least, bisexual women have always been far less stigmatized, in mainstream society, than lesbians, gay men, or bisexual men. Gay men and trans people are far more likely to be victims of hate crimes than bisexual cis women, as far as I am aware. Gay men and trans people are also far more likely to be focused on in right wing hate propaganda.

I would experience a lot of stigma in my very conservative community/family which is why I'm still in the closet. I grew up with hate propaganda.

Quote:

I would hazard a guess that most dog groomers are now calling themselves something else, or will soon do so if they have not changed their terminology already.

I've not seen that. Time will tell if your prediction comes true in a general sense.

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12 Oct 2023, 8:39 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

magz wrote:

I don't think it's reasonable to flee from regular meanings of words just because someone abuses these words as slurs.
If some crazy anti-medicine freaks start calling all medical experts "murderers", should we stop calling actual murderers that way?
Communication is already hard enough for us. Let's not make it even harder by demanding constant shifts of meanings.

Okay, but what do you think of the idea of disclaimers (in legit sources on "grooming") as an alternative?

I think there's something to be said for keeping a complex topic as simple as possible, especially if it's regarding serious concerns that are important enough to be announced and stickied. People are liable to get confused or not even read the entire thing if it seems too long and complex.

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magz
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12 Oct 2023, 8:55 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

magz wrote:

Communication is already hard enough for us. Let's not make it even harder by demanding constant shifts of meanings.

Okay, but what do you think of the idea of disclaimers (in legit sources on "grooming") as an alternative to changing the terminology?

Only if there is visible confusion.
We don't define every word we use in our regular communication. No reason to make our lives harder just because some other people abuse the words we need to use.

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12 Oct 2023, 9:00 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Then perhaps what is needed is to have two documents, a short simple one and more-detailed longer one?

A lot of people have a lot of worries about the term "grooming." (For example, as you yourself have often remarked, a lot of people are worried that ordinary flirting might be mistaken as "grooming.") These various worries can be addressed only in a longer document.

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12 Oct 2023, 9:02 am

magz wrote:

Only if there is visible confusion.
We don't define every word we use in our regular communication. No reason to make our lives harder just because some other people abuse the words we need to use.

In this case we are talking about a slur against already-marginalized categories of people (gay and trans), putting those people in greater danger.

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12 Oct 2023, 9:06 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

I think what we currently have is good enough. There's a lot of information in the sticky itself and in the links. If people have additional questions or concerns, they can post questions in the forum or ask a moderator about it.

If there was a sticky for every issue that members could potentially face on WP, it would fill several pages.

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12 Oct 2023, 9:21 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:

If there was a sticky for every issue that members could potentially face on WP, it would fill several pages.

I consider today's "groomer" panic against gays and trans people to be a very grave matter (at least here in the U.S.A.), not just one of many miscellaneous potential issues.

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12 Oct 2023, 9:25 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

If there was a sticky for every issue that members could potentially face on WP, it would fill several pages.

I consider today's "groomer" panic against gays and trans people to be a very grave matter (at least here in the U.S.A.), not just one of many miscellaneous potential issues.

It is, but the sticky addresses behavior that occurred on WP.

There have obviously been threads in PPR and News that address the extreme right wing use of the word.

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12 Oct 2023, 9:26 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

magz wrote:

Only if there is visible confusion.
We don't define every word we use in our regular communication. No reason to make our lives harder just because some other people abuse the words we need to use.

In this case we are talking about a slur against already-marginalized categories of people (gay and trans), putting those people in greater danger.

And how in your opinion making messages longer and more complex is supposed to help them?
"Groomer" as a slur (at least in the LGBT context, where I'm familiar with it) is exactly an accusation of grooming it the meaning we're talking about. The problem are the false accusations and we won't stop them by demanding changes in language of people who don't make them.

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12 Oct 2023, 10:25 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

You're also not one of the people being slurred by the newer right wing uses of the word, e.g. you're not gay or trans, nor are you a drag queen, nor are you a schoolteacher, as far as I am aware. I would be interested to hear what people in these categories think.

I'm gay and I'm aware of "groomer" being used as a slur on LGBTQ people.

I know full well what it means, and I've been on the receiving end of it - albeit in a brief and minor way.
But I still don't go into a fearful faint, clutching pearls, just because that word is used.
As for the "newer right wing" using it, that too will pass - along with all the other earlier flavors of idiocy that part of the political spectrum generates.

The word doesn't need further qualification in this type of usage - it's being used as an insult with the intention of demeaning the target and could just as easily be "kiddie fiddler", "poof", "fairy" and a thousand other hate words.

But the issue isn't about which nit-picky precise definition of what word is used - it's that the slur is made at all.

Eventually "groomer" will pass into the general lexicon of mindless, knuckle-dragging slurs and lose its sting.
But the meaning in these contexts will remain concise and correct.

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12 Oct 2023, 11:05 am

Cornflake wrote:

As for the "newer right wing" using it, that too will pass - along with all the other earlier flavors of idiocy that part of the political spectrum generates.

The word doesn't need further qualification in this type of usage - it's being used as an insult with the intention of demeaning the target and could just as easily be "kiddie fiddler", "poof", "fairy" and a thousand other hate words.

[...]

Eventually "groomer" will pass into the general lexicon of mindless, knuckle-dragging slurs and lose its sting.

I actually see it as much more dangerous than just another mindless, knuckle-dragging slur, at least here in the U.S.A. (maybe not so much in Europe).

See, for example:

- LGBT grooming conspiracy theory (Wikipedia)
- The right’s moral panic over “grooming” invokes age-old homophobia

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12 Oct 2023, 11:37 am

No one is denying that the problem exists in the US and Europe.

It’s just not necessary to further complicate the grooming thread with disclaimers or with a second thread about the problematic usage of the word because it’s clear that that’s not what the thread is talking about. This topic often comes up in News or PPR, so it’s not like it’s not being addressed elsewhere.

The sticky is about stuff that has occurred on WP. The word “grooming” is appropriate for that thread. No disclaimer is required that could detract from or add confusion to the topic. We don’t need two threads on grooming. One alerting members about the dangers on WP is sufficient for WP in my opinion.

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12 Oct 2023, 12:24 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

I don't think disclaimers are necessary because the sticky is already long enough and makes abundantly clear what grooming is in the context of concerning behavior on WP. It's obviously not talking about "the newer right wing uses of the word."

My trans, gay ass already gave my opinion and I said that the word "grooming" being in use + all of the info specifically regarding it literally saved my life. Not a hypothetical scenario, having knowledge of GROOMING and SPECIFICALLY GROOMING prevented me from getting seriously hurt by a convicted pedophile. If people danced around the topic and made it more confusing, and I never learned about grooming or could EASILY find info about it, there's a good chance I could be dead. I 100% don't think we need a different word and I legit think it's super privileged to not be able to see the value in PROPER usage of it.

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12 Oct 2023, 12:38 pm

The groomer thread doesn't need complicating by extra politics. As far as I can remember, it is about adult grooming on WP which occurred to someone in particular and gives information on prevention and on how to recognise such behaviour, in the event it might happen to someone again.

It's not a nice word but then again, the behaviour isn't nice and it does need to be described for people's safety and so there is no escaping it really.

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12 Oct 2023, 12:45 pm

Fairfield wrote:

On the previous page of this thread, I already conceded your point that the word shouldn't be changed, and for the reason you gave.

I also agreed with TP that the long post Inappropriate PMs and Grooming on WrongPlanet is already a bit long to the point of being confusing.

That's why I suggested that it be split into two posts: (1) a much shorter, simpler one, and (2) a slightly longer one containing everything in the current post plus a few more clarifications such as the one I am calling for. People who just need the simplest possible picture would have the option of reading just the first post.

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