How Anti-Zionism Relates to Anti-Semitism

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There is indeed a double standard here, but not a double standard specifically and uniquely against Jews, IMO.

As far as the specific countries you mentioned are concerned, I think it's largely a double standard in favor of great powers (or former great powers) and superpowers, who can get away with a lot more than small countries like Israel can, simply because great powers and superpowers are more powerful. Small countries can be bossed around by big and powerful countries, but not vice versa -- with rare exceptions, such as when a bunch of small countries manage to form a cartel like OPEC. That's not fair, but it's the way the world is.

But there's also an important moral issue to consider: In the case of England and France, most of their colonialism is safely in the distant past. Although the U.K., historically, has been the world's biggest perpetrator of settler-colonialism, either directly or indirectly (via daughter settler-colonialist countries such as the U.S.A., Canada, and Australia), the U.K. isn't currently doing settler-colonialism. Hence there isn't currently any need to stop the U.K. from doing more and more settler-colonialism.

On the other hand, Israel is still doing more and more settler colonialism, in both Jerusalem and "Area C" of the West Bank, forcibly displacing lots of innocent Palestinians in Jerusalem, while continuing to violate the Oslo accords by building more and more settlements in "Area C." (For some examples, see Settlement Watch on the website of Peace Now, an Israeli Jewish group that favors the 2-state solution.)


If one is going to compare Israel and Jews, not with historical great powers but with other relatively small countries and ethnic groups, there are plenty of other ethnic groups of roughly similar size that don't currently have their own nation states, and most of them probably never will. So there's no double standard there.

The main issue here is simply that Israel continues to take more and more land away from Palestinians, meanwhile also making life very difficult for Palestinians due to travel restrictions that make it hard for Palestinians to get from one part of "Area A" or "Area B" to another.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 25 Oct 2023, 8:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Not quite as "overwhelmingly" as they were 50 years ago. Orthodox Jews tend to have a lot more babies than secular Jews. They are still a minority, but a fast-growing minority, now 12% of American Jews, and projected to rise to about 29% in 2063, according to Yale Insights in 2021.


Here, do you mean just American or Canadian Orthodox Jews, or do you mean American or Canadian Conservative/Reform and secular Jews too?


Very interesting.

For the record, not all Arabs are anti-Zionism anymore. Some Muslims even justify Zionisim on Quaranic basis.

Here, you may find interesting that this is one of the common views among Gulf Arabs:

https://dl3.pushbulletusercontent.com/q ... G_2606.MP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnf0w9U ... heAtlantic

There IS a line in the Koran itself that seems to endorse the idea that the Jews have a right to a homeland in Israel.

Some years ago when I heard that there was such a line of scripture I googled it to see if such a verse really existed in the Koran. I found ONE website that mentioned it.. A site run by angry anti zionist Muslims.

The site said "here is that line that folks are talking about.. Well dont fall for it...the Crusaders and Zionists are distorting it to justify blah blah blah."

But the verse they quoted...DID seem to be endorsing the idea of a Jewish homeland. Though like everything else in both the Bible and in the Koran its wide open to interpretation.

Are people really sure that Israel was a settler-colonialist project by Europeans? Considering that more than 50% of Israel's population currently is made up of Mizrahim (also called Mizrahi jews, or jews of Middle Eastern background), rather than European jews?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

Yes, I know that the modern Zionist movement started in Europe, but just asking the question.

Mizrahi jews were among one of the latest large wave of migrants; basically got harrassed by angry muslim mobs (as a result of the conflict with Israel) and hence pushing them to leave their own countries, this was around 1956. Another big wave happened after the USSR collapse on 1991.

Egypt for instance had a large Jewish community, one of its iconic singers was Jew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C06U4e ... shCongress

True but there are not too many people advocating existing small countries should disband or merge.

Calling Israel a settler/colonialist entity is simply a way to frame the issue to resonate with parts of the world that have suffered under colonialism. You're right that it's a specious analogy. The formation of the state of Israel was really more of mass migration. Maybe like Hungary being populated by tribes from Central Asia.

I may have simplified some things. A big reason Orthodox Jews like being in Israel is because practicing their religion in the diaspora is very isolating. For example, they can't in general go out to restaurants in Europe or NA, but in Israel most restaurants are kosher. Even if they don't emigrate, they enjoy frequent visits there. And I may have given the impression they all go to live in settlements. Only the most extreme cases do that, but a lot of them are attracted to more religious communities like Beit Shemesh or Ra'anana.

Also non-religious immigrants don't necessarily blend in right away. At least there used to be nightclubs where the patrons all spoke Russian. One reason being that going out drinking at night had not been a big part of more established Israeli culture.

If you want a glimpse of secular Israelis living in Tel Aviv, I recommend the limited series On the Spectrum. It clearly shows that Israel has its own culture and if those people were forced to resettle in some other country e.g. a country in which their ancestors had lived, they would see themselves and be seen as foreigners.

When I speak of settler-colonialism in Israel's case, the central issue is not the question of where Israel's Jews have been immigrating from and how or why, but rather Israel's ongoing behavior towards the Palestinians.

Israel, at its founding, seized the homes of the majority of Palestinians, merely for the crime of having fled (temporarily, they had every reason to believe) for their own safety. Then, to this day, Israel continues to seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem and continues to build more and more settlements in the West Bank, in violation of treaty.

All of this is settler-colonialist behavior.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 26 Oct 2023, 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I'm not advocating that Israel's Jews be forced to move. But some radical changes will be needed to put a stop to Israel's settler-colonialist behavior once and for all.

I am not sure what would be a viable solution, and my thoughts about this issue are in a state of flux. For some of my evolving thoughts, see the separate thread Israel/Palestine -- how could a one-state solution work?

Of course it is. Just like the USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

Depends what part of Europe or NA, I would imagine. Here in the NYC area, there are plenty of kosher restaurants in those neighborhoods where there are a lot of Orthodox Jews.


I would hazard a guess that some Israelis live in settlements simply because it's cheaper to live there than in Israel proper?

That may be true, but it's probably unique to NYC. A lot of those places probably date back to when most Jews kept kosher because they always had, but weren't fervently religious. Like my in-laws grew up in kosher homes but they weren't what we'd call religious. Baltimore has a high percentage of Orthodox but it's a very recent phenomenon. Those people spend all their free time davening and there are literally just a handful of eating establishments and they usually struggle to stay in business. This is where my impression comes from


There is a lot of housing built across the Green Line from which people commute to large cities. The settlements I was talking about are more remote and their inhabitants sometimes go out of their way to harass the locals, then violence breaks out and the IDF has to get involved. Unfortunately the political clique controlling Israel supports those people. It's my impression most Israelis would have nothing to do with them. A lot of them seem to be fanatics from NA. Sorry I don't have numbers for anything I've said. It's from following the situation for decades.