Things suddenly designated "woke"

Page 2 of 8 [ 119 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,626
Location: New York City (Queens)

22 Dec 2023, 1:34 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

"Woke" or "Wokeism" is a general political worldview that looks at things this way.

[...]

What wokeness is not is anything and everything MAGA's do not like.

According to you.

But there is no authoritative, canonical definition of "wokeness." It's not a technical term, nor is there a "wokeness manifesto." The people who originally used "woke" in a political context (Black Lives Matter activists) used it as a general exhortation (e.g. "Stay woke!"), not as a reference to any specific well-defined set of ideas.

So it now means whatever any given person using it wants it to mean.

And, as far as I can tell, it has largely evolved into meaning precisely what you say it does not mean: "anything and everything MAGA's do not like."

And in France, it now apparently means "anything and everything deemed by French right wingers not to be traditionally French enough."

And I suppose anyone who disagrees with you on this is an evil MAGA bigot, right?

No. ASPartOfMe is far from being an evil MAGA bigot. He is a genuine political moderate.

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

You know what I honestly think? I think everybody on the internet including me is a trash-talking terminally online know-nothing trying to be an expert on things they know nothing about

No, this does not describe "everybody on the internet." Not everyone is "trash-talking." And some people make a sincere effort to learn, and to acquire reasonably sound knowledge.

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

but are being systematically brainwashed into hating each other violently because the powers at be are trying to start World War 3 for kicks.

While there are indeed quite a few bad actors who try to "systematically brainwash" people into "hating each other violently," I don't think that's the sole cause, or even the main cause, of all the widespread bad behavior on the Internet.

The main problem is that today's social media are just too damned big. When huge numbers of people are free to interact with each other as easily as they can on the major social media platforms, without the kind of moderation we have here on WP, it is inevitable that quarrels will arise, even with no one deliberately trying to start them.

Also, those who do deliberately start quarrels online aren't limited to the "powers that be." I think a lot of people start fights to get attention, to earn "likes" from people who passionately agree with their expressed views.

_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,626
Location: New York City (Queens)

22 Dec 2023, 2:01 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

A lot of learned people use it in a similar manner to me. As I mentioned in another thread very recently liberal Jews worried about antisemitism and anti-zionism are using the term often to describe a similar phenomenon as me. Many of those arguably similar to you were dismissive of the term three months ago.

It is not so much what it is called but what it describes which is a way of thinking I described. I am concluding many of those mocking the term or minimizing the term are really saying the type of thinking I described does not exist or is way overhyped.

The ideas you enumerated here do exist, but they do not constitute a single, well-defined ideology. They are a set of beliefs that have been common among left-leaning academics and political activists for at least the past few decades, then started getting popularized about ten years ago thanks to Internet plus the rise of Black Lives Matter, and then, apparently, got partially co-opted by the corporate world.

Having been intermittently involved in various left-leaning political movements over the years, I have first-hand knowledge of how some of these ideas evolved. More about this another time.

These ideas don't constitute a systematic, well-defined ideology, but a subset of them arguably do constitute a subcultural worldview, with the relevant subculture being the alliance of various left-leaning marginalized-group rights movements. Perhaps this subcultural worldview could be referred to as "today's left consensus."

A subset of today's left consensus -- with some crucial parts left out -- has also been co-opted by the corporate world, as what is sometimes called "woke capitalism."

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 22 Dec 2023, 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

22 Dec 2023, 3:08 am

My problem is that when Bethany Mandel (who spent the better part of her life fighting wokeness) really admitted she couldn't encapsulate "woke" to mean anything.

In the interview Briahnna Gray (Journalist with the The Hill) allowed Mandel to sit with the question "what is woke", waiting patiently for a coherent answer from her uncomfortable guest. Mandel continued to struggle, saying: “woke is something that’s very hard to define, and we’ve spent an entire chapter defining it. It is, sort of, the understanding that we need to totally reimagine and reduce society in order to create hierarchies of oppression. Umm. Sorry, I … it’s hard to explain in a 15-second soundbite.”

I mean something isn't right with the anti-woke movement if it can't agree on what they are fighting against.

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 37,946
Location: Long Island, New York

22 Dec 2023, 4:40 am

cyberdad wrote:

I think she froze on camera. Who hasn't gotten tongue-tied and sounded stupid about a topic they are knowledgeable about when put on the spot? But hey people who are dismissive the some of the concepts I outlined earlier have a cudgel that proves anti woke people are ignoramuses who use "woke" as a reason to persecute black people, trans people etc.

_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

22 Dec 2023, 4:47 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

I think initially I found it strange she had a panic attack given this is all she has been writing about for years but makes sense she had a brain freeze when asked in an interview.

I wonder if now something is woke is based on a "feeling"?

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 37,946
Location: Long Island, New York

22 Dec 2023, 4:51 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

And I suppose anyone who disagrees with you on this is an evil MAGA bigot, right?

No. ASPartOfMe is far from being an evil MAGA bigot. He is a genuine political moderate.

I think he was criticizing you, not me.

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 37,946
Location: Long Island, New York

22 Dec 2023, 5:02 am

cyberdad wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Encapsulating a topic one is passionate about for a sound bite is the type of thing that can cause brain freeze.

DuckHairback
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jan 2021
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,484
Location: Durotriges Territory

22 Dec 2023, 5:33 am

cyberdad wrote:

I wonder if now something is woke is based on a "feeling"?

This is what i tend to think. People who regularly decry things as woke seem to be nursing a vague grievance that something, somewhere is being taken from them. They can't define exactly what, it just feels like an offence to them. There are people in media and politics who are using it deliberately to stoke their culture wars but for the average person it just seems to be a feeling that something is off, and it's impoverishing them somehow.

_________________

Les grands garçons sont dans les boucheries

ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,359

22 Dec 2023, 9:30 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Did she ever come back with a coherent answer?

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 37,946
Location: Long Island, New York

22 Dec 2023, 9:35 am

ToughDiamond wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Did she ever come back with a coherent answer?

I have no idea but it does not matter, damage done.

ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,359

22 Dec 2023, 1:13 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

Did she ever come back with a coherent answer?

I have no idea but it does not matter, damage done.

Well, I'd say at least some of that damage might be reversed if she or anybody else did, to a large enough audience. The sooner we have a good definition of what those who use woke as a pejorative term mean by the word, the sooner we can get a meaningful conversation going about it. But I suspect they never meant it as an objective term, but as a way of blurring the issue. Or, if they're genuine at all, they've become too passionate to be objective.

It would seem very sad if political opinion is swayed very much by the momentary breakdown of a TV interviewee on one occasion. Yet I think it's possibly the case. People do seem easily persuaded by the results of barely relevant verbal punch-ups between political adversaries.

ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,359

22 Dec 2023, 1:20 pm

DuckHairback wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

I wonder if now something is woke is based on a "feeling"?

Some truth in that I think.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,118
Location: Right over your left shoulder

22 Dec 2023, 1:42 pm

DuckHairback wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

I wonder if now something is woke is based on a "feeling"?

Agreed.

_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
If you feel useless, just remember the USA took four presidents, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

22 Dec 2023, 7:05 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Encapsulating a topic one is passionate about for a sound bite is the type of thing that can cause brain freeze.

I don't think so. Mandel is quite intelligent and a content expert in the field she was writing about. I work with content experts and they know their field back to front.

I've done some research and Bethany Mandel was also quite media savvy. What is true, however, is that she largely did the rounds on right wing media who were enthusiastic to host her and curate interview questions that permitted Mandel to follow a well trodden script,

Briahnna Joy Gray is an exceptional journalist working for the Hill with a slight left leaning in her views. She correctly picked up Mandel's propensity to operate on some type of script so she threw in a deconstructive question in order to test her. Mandel really was stumped and if you follow the interview she claimed that "you can't define wokeness in a 15 second soundbite". I think the reason is that the actual definition would make her sound discriminatory and prejudiced. Hence why she hit a dead end.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,118
Location: Right over your left shoulder

22 Dec 2023, 7:14 pm

cyberdad wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Encapsulating a topic one is passionate about for a sound bite is the type of thing that can cause brain freeze.

Given who she is, she probably should have been prepared. Being asked to define woke shouldn't be a gotcha for someone who's job includes creating a backlash to changing social norms.

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

22 Dec 2023, 7:24 pm

DuckHairback wrote:

The missing link is the connection between those (quite clearly) have stoked culture wars (Steve Bannon, Trump, De Santis, Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, Fox news etc). social media celebrities (Elon Musk, various right wing podcasters etc) and the general public.

One hint is to look at the target of anti-wokeness. Namely politicians on the left and the media, but also educational institutions.

When a politician or journalist talks about helping bring in more refugees, support LGBTQI rights, increase the number of women in politics. or support BLM they are automatically blamed for giving in to the woke mob.

When a media company produces a movie/tv drama and hires a diverse cast/or has a non-white main lead they are automatically labeled woke

When a educational institution teaches students about historic/current cultural bias they are labelled as a breeding ground for the future generation of leaders of the woke mob

So now when you think about an average person, is it a random? or is it somebody from a very specific demographic who is Mr "average", do they really not know what they are feeling? or do they know but not want to express their feelings directly?

Page 2 of 8 [ 119 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8 Next

Jump to:

Things suddenly designated "woke" Post Reply New Topic

Things suddenly designated "woke"