Medical transition should be free and mandatory

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Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 6:59 am

belijojo wrote:

What about age? At what age do you think they can correctly express their sexual cognition? Warm Reminder: This is a trade-off between reducing the suicide rate and the misdiagnosis rate.

For safety purposes it should be done for trans people who are 18 and above. Usually at this time, they are considered mature and have most of the body developed since this marks the ending of the puberty.

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funeralxempire
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27 Jan 2024, 7:01 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

2. I still disagree that mandatory transition is too extreme. Firstly, you would not want an underaged person to go through that so it is for the best that adults who are trans have the priority. Children can wait for their turn once they turn 18. Secondly, a trans person has gender dysphoria which is why they are trans since they are questioning the validity of their current body that doesn't match with their soul. Lastly, trans people are often misgendered due to their body appearance and it is necessary and understandable that such pain cannot last long so it is mandatory that trans people go through medical transition and hormone replacement therapy.

None of that amounts to a justification for forcing people to receive surgery.

There's no case where forcing someone to receive surgery is reasonable.

There are nearly 50 million trans people around the world (about 0.6% of World Population), so it is not too late to help them get the treatment they need in order to improve their well-being and decrease suicide rates (in the US, more than 40% of trans adults have attempted suicide). We still have time!

Source

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/transpop-suicide-press-release/

You're still not making a case for forcing people to receive surgery, vs. the better option of making it available voluntarily for people who might need it.

It's not even that you're failing to make a good case, you're not making a case whatsoever.

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Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 7:05 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

None of that amounts to a justification for forcing people to receive surgery.

There's no case where forcing someone to receive surgery is reasonable.

Trans people have high suicide rates! Either we should intervene and invest as much money as we can as early as possible or face a new coming global crisis. We are already having hundreds of millions of people being hungry and without clean water, and now we have loads of lonely people, and then we have a lot of trans people committing suicide. If the goal of an agenda is to achieve something by a certain time period then it should be done without goofing around. I genuinely cannot believe how the capitalist system can be so greedy and selfish when we have enough money in the world to make an efficient teamwork effort into investing it to solve these persistent global issues that may greatly hinder our progress if not dealt with sooner!

naturalplastic
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27 Jan 2024, 7:20 am

Absolutely.

Everyone in the nation should be forced to go under the knife and be forced to be...physically remodeled to become the opposite sex to their birth sex!

And it should be paid for by the taxpayer.

Which means...it would cost everyone the same amount as it would ...if they paid for it themselves!

If EVERYONE had it done (you said it would be 'mandatory')then everyone would be forced to pay taxes to finance everyone (including oneself) having a sex change operation. And the increase in taxes per person would be about the same as what the procedure would cost if you paid for it yourself. :lol:

Because of that, and a myriad other reasons, it sounds like a great idea!

Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 7:22 am

naturalplastic wrote:

Because of that, and a myriad other reasons, it sounds like a great idea!

Yeah! Rich people are paying too little these days.

funeralxempire
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27 Jan 2024, 7:23 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

None of that amounts to a justification for forcing people to receive surgery.

There's no case where forcing someone to receive surgery is reasonable.

Forced surgery doesn't directly address suicide rates.
Further, whatever positive contributions forced surgery might make can be achieved by voluntary surgery.

I don't get why you're so hung-up on authoritarian solutions to issues. What benefits come from the state forcing people vs. allowing people to make the choice to pursue surgical solutions?

How will making reassignment mandatory be better than having the patient make the final decision about their medical choices?

How will you deal with people who have anxieties over major surgery, will you force them to undergo surgery anyways?

Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 7:26 am

funeralxempire wrote:

1. People with anxieties over major surgeries will be given psychological treatment to calm down and be assured that nothing is bad about it and that if anything goes wrong, the staff are responsible and should be penalized and replaced with more competent ones.

2. Medical transition is still considered mandatory in my opinion due to the general discrimination that trans people face because of their body not matching their identity and soul. Haven't you read specifically that I was also talking about transphobia over their body not matching their soul?

belijojo
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27 Jan 2024, 7:31 am

SUICIDE THOUGHTS AND ATTEMPTS AMONG TRANSGENDER ADULTS: Findings from the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey

Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.

Those who had "de-transitioned" at some point, meaning having gone back to living according to their sex assigned at birth, were significantly more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts both past-year and lifetime, than those who had never "de-transitioned." Nearly 12 percent of those who "de-transitioned" attempted suicide in the past year compared to 6,7 percent of those who have not "de-transitioned."

A meaningful study with some interesting conclusions

In general, I somewhat agree with OP's ideas. Although they may seem very unusual, they reflect a kind of rough progress.

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Last edited by belijojo on 27 Jan 2024, 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 7:35 am

belijojo wrote:

And this is why medical transitioning should be mandatory for this reason as well. As we have established, trans people report high suicide rates due to ever-growing transphobia. Their bodies are often unintentionally and intentionally misgendered. Because of the still hostile environment, this leads to high suicide rates among trans people who haven't yet transitioned. This is a clear cry for help by the trans community and it is time that necessary action is taken to help prevent more suicides among the trans population.

funeralxempire
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27 Jan 2024, 7:42 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Medical transition is still considered mandatory in my opinion due to the general discrimination that trans people face because of their body not matching their identity and soul. Haven't you read specifically that I was also talking about transphobia over their body not matching their soul?

Nothing you've said so far amounts to making a solid case for forcing people to have surgery.

You've made some arguments for why surgery should be available for free, but that's not the same as making a case that people should be forced to have it if they don't wish to have it.

I keep asking you to make that specific point and you keep deflecting from it with other, unrelated tangents that make other points. At this point I have to conclude that you can't actually make an argument for why making transitions mandatory is preferable to making them voluntary - probably because no argument can be made for making surgical procedures mandatory.

Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 7:48 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Let me ask you. How well did you read my arguments and how well did you interpret them?

Second of, think about hundreds of millions of hungry people who desperately need food. Do they have to volunteer to get food? By the time that "voluntary" action is taken, they'd be dead from starvation. Do you think that voluntary service for medical transition is going to lower the suicide rates? It may but it would be too slow and painful. Hence why we need to medically transition as many trans people as possible to decrease suicide rates among their people because they know that they would reach the end of the tunnel and they would finally be free from their oppression and curse laid upon by their previous biological shape.

Do you want thousands of trans people to commit suicide every year? Do you want to lower these suicide rates? I think that voluntary service is too slow and way too painful for many trans people who cannot wait that long. Surely it can help reduce it by little but as George S. Patton said: "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."

Your choice again to agree or disagree but I still feel that voluntary service is not enough.

belijojo
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27 Jan 2024, 7:52 am

Myth #5: All trans people medically transition
I'm not sure if the source of the data in this report is official, but it's a counterargument that seems reasonable

I wanted to find a data on the percentage of people in trans who don't want surgery but couldn't find it

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funeralxempire
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27 Jan 2024, 8:02 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Let me ask you. How well did you read my arguments and how well did you interpret them?

I've interpreted your arguments as well as you've made them.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Second of, think about hundreds of millions of hungry people who desperately need food. Do they have to volunteer to get food?

Yes, we give them food, we don't tie them down and cram it down their throats. We sometimes even go so far as to bring them food, but we don't force anyone to eat.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

By the time that "voluntary" action is taken, they'd be dead from starvation.

This isn't true, as addressed above.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Do you think that voluntary service for medical transition is going to lower the suicide rates?

Yes.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

It may but it would be too slow and painful.

Why would that be? :scratch:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Hence why we need to medically transition as many trans people as possible to decrease suicide rates among their people because they know that they would reach the end of the tunnel and they would finally be free from their oppression and curse laid upon by their previous biological shape.

Ideally, the people who desire surgery should receive it before anyone who doesn't want it, no?

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Do you want thousands of trans people to commit suicide every year? Do you want to lower these suicide rates?

This is an attempt at emotional manipulation, nothing more. It should be clear we share the goal of reducing suicide rates, the disagreement is over how to best pursue that goal.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

I think that voluntary service is too slow and way too painful for many trans people who cannot wait that long. Surely it can help reduce it by little but as George S. Patton said: "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."

Your choice again to agree or disagree but I still feel that voluntary service is not enough.

The problem is that you're not proposing a good plan of any sort. You're proposing a bad plan executed violently and hoping that no one will notice that it's not a good plan.

I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that forcing people to transition would make getting care more efficient than giving people who desire it access, when all that would do is force more people into the pipeline, some of whom aren't certain they want it yet.

Shouldn't people who know they want it have priority over people who don't want it? :scratch:

Last edited by funeralxempire on 27 Jan 2024, 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 8:03 am

belijojo wrote:

The article also points out counter-arguments to this one.

First one says:

Quote:

They may, for instance, suffer from severe gender dysphoria, a state of emotional distress caused by how someone’s body or the gender they were assigned at birth conflicts with their gender identity. This condition, the American Medical Association noted in a 2008 resolution, can lead to “distress, dysfunction, debilitating depression and, for some people without access to appropriate medical care and treatment, suicidality and death.” But the AMA and American Psychiatric Association say it can be treated by letting someone transition without significant barriers and social stigma.

The second one follows with:

Quote:

But trans people very often face discrimination in medical settings that prevents them from getting this type of care. In a national survey published by various LGBTQ groups in 2010, 19 percent of trans and gender nonconforming people said they were refused care because of their gender identity or expression, 28 percent of trans and gender nonconforming respondents said they were subjected to harassment in medical settings, and 2 percent said they experienced violence. This led to delays in care for many people: 28 percent said they postponed medical care when sick or injured due to discrimination.

So not only do we see transphobia from misgendering but also when you have politically-aligned medical staff who refuse to offer such care which only increases such stigma. I think we need to get rid of such bias that can cause unwanted bigotry. The article mentions that Obamacare in 2016 clarified that such discrimination is illegal.

Yugoslav1945
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27 Jan 2024, 8:18 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Let me ask you. How well did you read my arguments and how well did you interpret them?

I've interpreted your arguments as well as you've made them.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Second of, think about hundreds of millions of hungry people who desperately need food. Do they have to volunteer to get food?

Yes, we give them food, we don't tie them down and cram it down their throats. We sometimes even go so far as to bring them food, but we don't force anyone to eat.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

By the time that "voluntary" action is taken, they'd be dead from starvation.

This isn't true, as addressed above.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Do you think that voluntary service for medical transition is going to lower the suicide rates?

Yes.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

It may but it would be too slow and painful.

Why would that be? :scratch:

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Ideally, the people who desire surgery should receive it before anyone who doesn't want it, no?

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

Do you want thousands of trans people to commit suicide every year? Do you want to lower these suicide rates?

This is an attempt at emotional manipulation, nothing more. It should be clear we share the goal of reducing suicide rates, the disagreement is over how to best pursue that goal.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Why would that be? :scratch:

1. Because it will decrease suicide rates at a lower level.

funeralxempire wrote:

Ideally, the people who desire surgery should receive it before anyone who doesn't want it, no?

2. Ideally, yes. We cannot ignore the actual disabled people who really need it so we have to respect those priorities but still, everyone will have an opportunity for such.

funeralxempire wrote:

This is an attempt at emotional manipulation, nothing more.

3. That's what you are gonna deal with when having civil discussions and arguments with people. It's one of the tools to convincing people.

funeralxempire wrote:

The problem is that you're not proposing a good plan of any sort. You're proposing a bad plan executed violently and hoping that no one will notice that it's not a good plan.

4. How is it a "bad plan"? We are talking about resolving a very serious situation. Maybe you have something to say but you already have and that is volunteer service when I cannot stand having to see a very slow decline in suicide rates. I want a drastic decrease in such because suicide is the last thing you want a poor man or woman to do to themselves.

belijojo
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27 Jan 2024, 8:31 am

Preferences for and barriers to gender affirming surgeries in transgender and non-binary individuals
i found it！The biggest evidence not to force surgery

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Medical transition should be free and mandatory