Does a right to defend yourself mean invading someone else?

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Fnord
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04 Oct 2024, 5:48 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

. . . the existence of Israel is a fait accompli. At this point, the only way to get rid of it would be to ethnically cleanse nearly 10 million people. This seems undesirable.

No, that's not the only way to get rid of it. Another way would be to replace Israel/Palestine with a single bi-national state with constitutional protections for all.

Good luck with that.

When when you're accustomed to sovereignty, being forced to share governance with your enemy feels like defeat.

Mona Pereth
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04 Oct 2024, 6:23 am

Fnord wrote:

"I know without any doubt in my mind who I'm rooting for, and it's not the terrorists who celebrate death. It's the country that celebrates life." -- Erin Molan

Words to live by.

L'Chaim!

Actually, an infuriatingly hypocritical thing to say, given that the Israelis are the ones who have actually killed a whole lot more people.

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cyberdad
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04 Oct 2024, 6:27 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

Fnord wrote:

"I know without any doubt in my mind who I'm rooting for, and it's not the terrorists who celebrate death. It's the country that celebrates life." -- Erin Molan

Words to live by.

L'Chaim!

Actually, an infuriatingly hypocritical thing to say, given that the Israelis are the ones who have actually killed a whole lot more people.

Which doesn't excuse Oct 7. Why don't you read the founder of HAMAS eldest son Mosab Hassan Yousef has to say https://www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-ha ... ish-hamas/

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04 Oct 2024, 6:33 am

Fnord wrote:

Good luck with that.

When when you're accustomed to sovereignty, being forced to share governance with your enemy feels like defeat.

But it's the only solution that can possibly work. The "two-state solution" can't work, because Israel has continued to evict more and more Palestinians to make way for more and more Israeli Jewish settlers.

Getting rid of Apartheid in South Africa seemed improbable too, but eventually they did it.

The main prerequisite is for the U.S.A. to stop unconditionally supporting Israel.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 04 Oct 2024, 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
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04 Oct 2024, 6:34 am

cyberdad wrote:

Which doesn't excuse Oct 7.

Indeed it doesn't, but neither does Oct 7 excuse Israel's vastly disproportionate response.

ASPartOfMe
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04 Oct 2024, 11:50 am

The_Walrus wrote:

No, that's a simplification, which ignores the fact that for most Israelis, Israel is the only home they have ever known, and most Palestinians have never called Israel home.

The colonialist ambitions of Hamas are based on nothing but ethnicity and deserve to be rejected just as strongly as Israel's own colonialist ambitions. There is some fair debate to be had over the West Bank settlements and East Jerusalem, which will need compromises likely to be painful to both sides (and which seem vanishingly unlikely at present), but Tel Aviv is Israeli and Ramallah is Palestinian, there's no getting away from that without ethnic cleansing.

Not only is it the only home they personally have known but they believe it was the Jews home they were kicked out of then returned to after 2,000 or so years.

One can debate the history until one is blue in the face but the bottom line is that both sides believe all of the land belongs to them. In the ‘90s a substantial number of people did believe in compromise. IMHO to most compromise supporters compromise was the lesser evil but deep down inside they believed someday they would get back all of it.

In order for a two state or a binational state solution to succeed these need to happen. Not only do majorities have to want it for whatever reason but opponents on both sides can not have the ability to successfully disrupt the arrangement before it starts. Once the new state(s) begins there will attempts to undo it or them in perpetuity. In order to fringe opponents the new state(s) have to work well enough for long enough that most think of it as normal and enough opponents believe the arrangement is a horrid fact of life.

Tall order.

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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 04 Oct 2024, 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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04 Oct 2024, 12:30 pm

Fnord wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

. . . the existence of Israel is a fait accompli. At this point, the only way to get rid of it would be to ethnically cleanse nearly 10 million people. This seems undesirable.

No, that's not the only way to get rid of it. Another way would be to replace Israel/Palestine with a single bi-national state with constitutional protections for all.

Good luck with that.

When when you're accustomed to sovereignty, being forced to share governance with your enemy feels like defeat.

Which sounds a lot like apartheid now, apartheid forever!

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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.

cyberdad
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04 Oct 2024, 6:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Which sounds a lot like apartheid now, apartheid forever!

If you know your history, South African indigenous people only succeeded in removing heirarchical privilege and authoritarian dictatorship and apartheid through peaceful protest. You have to give the numericaly superior people of South Africa credit for not wiping out the relatively small evil Afrikaaners and English speaking settlers.

Palestinian people would have achieved much better outcomes if they focused on advancing the economic developement of their people, health and education by peaceful means instead of seeking help from terrorist states which funded the PLO and HAMAS.

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04 Oct 2024, 8:24 pm

cyberdad wrote:

The South African movement against Apartheid was not completely nonviolent. (See, for example, the Wikipedia article on necklacing.) Nevertheless, Apartheid was clearly an unjust system.

cyberdad
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04 Oct 2024, 8:36 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

The South African movement against Apartheid was not completely nonviolent. (See, for example, the Wikipedia article on necklacing.)

It was violent against their own people. Read Mosab Hassan Youseff's own account of life in HAMAS. Yousef said that his doubts about Islam and Hamas began forming when he realized Hamas' brutality, and that he hated how Hamas used the lives of suffering civilians and children to achieve its goals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Has ... ts%20goals.

He had an epiphany after he saw how HAMAS was treating their own people.

Mona Pereth
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04 Oct 2024, 8:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Why don't you read the founder of HAMAS eldest son Mosab Hassan Yousef has to say https://www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-ha ... ish-hamas/

Not someone I'm inclined to trust. He is, as far as I can tell, someone who worked for many years as a double agent.

Israel, alas, has a long history of torturing people, then releasing them on the condition that they become informants.

cyberdad
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04 Oct 2024, 9:00 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

Israel, alas, has a long history of torturing people, then releasing them on the condition that they become informants.

So has the United States. People seem to not see the irony of living in a country that has done much worse things than Israel in the name of national security but feel they can judge whether Israel civilians deserve to be bombed or attacked.

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04 Oct 2024, 9:11 pm

cyberdad wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef

According to that very article:

Quote:

Yousef was held by Shin Bet agents in 1996. While in prison he decided to accept a Shin Bet offer to become an informant.

[...]

In May 2016, talking to a Jerusalem Post conference in New York, Yousef said that at one point, he was simultaneously working for and being paid by Israel, the United States, the Palestinian Authority, and Hamas.

Also he seems to have become rather bigoted against Muslims generally:

Quote:

Yousef tweeted "If I have to choose between 1.6 billion Muslims and a cow, I will choose the cow.”[26] He has stated: "I have zero respect for any individual who identifies as a Muslim."

And he spouts blatant Israeli propaganda:

Quote:

Yousef said the cause of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict was not the occupation or land, but Hamas' "Islamic, religious identity" that causes antisemitism.

Mona Pereth
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04 Oct 2024, 9:16 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Yes the United States has done horrible things. We need to stop doing horrible things. And one of the horrible things we need to stop doing is giving unlimited support to other governments, like Israel, that also do horrible things.

Anyhow, my point is not that "Israel civilians deserve to be bombed or attacked." My point is that Gaza civilians do not deserve to be genocided.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 04 Oct 2024, 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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04 Oct 2024, 9:16 pm

Why would he put his own life at risk? People like Mosab and Ayaan Hirsi Ali need bodyguards for the rest of their lives for simply speaking up.

cyberdad
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04 Oct 2024, 9:19 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

I too am against excessive civilian tolls, but I also acknowledge that in order for you and me to enjoy our relative freedoms and prosperity our governments engage in terrible things in the name of keeping the peace and protecting our national interests.

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