Liberal / non-literal intepretation of bible impossible...

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You can see why Jesus said, "Many will say to me in the last day, Lord, Lord do we not do many powerfull works in your name" and he replies to them, "get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you".

All manmade so called Christian religions just use the Bible as some sort of prop, leaving out bits that might not be so popular like not allowing anal intercourse between men, and adding bits like claiming Jesus wasnt being literal when he said he was the son of God but that he actually is God.

Basically, if you ignore the Bible, unless God comes and reveals a new truth to you personally, you are just fabricating yet another, false, man-made religion.

You could start one that incurages mass orgies with under age school girls and call it "Christian" but I think you would be hard pressed to convince Jesus when he comes.

The Bible is the only link we have with God, he proves his worthyness that some people only require this small token in order to turn to him, not visible miracles like a flaming chariot flying across the sky towing a banner which reads, " Look everbody, I really do exist"
So if you abandon the Bible, or just pick and choise from it, youve servered the only link with God he left us.

Having said that, the Bible is written in such a way that you really have to search like a man looking through a file for a fine pearl to understand its message, and even then you will need Gods help to reveal it.
The end of Daniel Chapter 12 tells Daniel, who didnt understand what he himself wrote, explains that the words are made secret, and sealed up untill the time of the end, no wicked one will understand.
This is why it does appear contradictory or unbeilievable to those who would prefer to reject the gift of Christ that God gave us all, its a way of seperating the Meek who will inherit the Earth, from the un-Godly who like new grass will speedily wither.

[quote="nominalist"]
Can you provide references for each of your points (from actual research)?

REPLY<<<< I would if I was trying to sell it to you , or get funding for a research project but it would be a long list and would take me hours to put together just to convince you of something I don't need to prove in a simple discussion, that I'm not making anything up. ! ! >>>>

I am using the term "theory" technically, which is very different from its more common usage. A theory is a careful explanation of supported research data. Theories are based on research. If not, they are speculations, not theories.

REPLY<<<< ....; , theory is any proposition about observed events/facts in the light of existing knowledge , which to become MORE than a theory would need solid uncontrovertible support ! !!And why are you using language technically? >>>>

Some of the world's greatest scholars began their work with an intuition. However, in order for the intuition to be usable, it must be tested.

REPLY<<<< What an earth is an intuition ?
How are you proposing that my idea should be used? I'm using it already as an instrument of vision.To look from where I haven't looked before.

How do you know if it's god revealing it to you or your own imagination lying to you? or the devil? There is no standard. How can you even trust the words themselves if they were not chosen carefully to begin with and you can just make them mean what you want to?



The problem is Daniel was not understanding prophecies, that is a lot different then the rest of the bible which is plain and clear. Whenever there is something difficult it is usually plainly said. Otherwise people couldn't know much about god or jesus, if the words do not mean what they say (are properly defined), then it's pointless to read the bible.

You missed my point completely: If jesus was real, and he believed moses and adam were real, any person who claims to be christian who doesn't believe they were, is not a christian, period. It's that simple. The liberal christians are seen for the fakes they are.

If that's your point, I reject it. I think it is possible to be a follower of Christ and try to live by the Sermon on the Mount or other teachings, regardless of what one thinks about Adam. If the key to salvation is to love God and love your neighbor, then it doesn't matter if we believe that the Earth is flat (as Jesus probably did). I have a strong faith that the Earth is an oblate spheroid, and is not flat.

In fact, I believe it is possible to be a Christian without elevating Jesus to the status of God. Jesus had people address him as rabbi or teacher. The whole trinity idea (which was a widespread pre-Christian idea) was slipped into Christianity after the death of Jesus.

Yes. However, I suppose I think that way whenever I am evaluating evidence.



Just my thing.



I would call the connections you made intuitions - gut feelings that you have figured something out.

Cheers,

Mark

Whether christ was god matters not though, since christ said only "god was good" Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Christianity stands or falls by the resurrection, what exactly do does a 'christian' like you need to be saved from if there is no sin?

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

See it's this kind of absurdity liberal "christians" (an oxymoron if there ever was one), make of the resurrection and Pauls teaching, who according to the bible was speaking on behalf of god (filled with the spirit)

"He that rejects me and receives not my words . . . the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48). "He that believes not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

So do you believe christ was a real person, and where exactly does sin come from and why does he have to save us from it? Why was he resurrected? Answer those please.

That is an appeal to authority logical fallacy. The truth is it doesn't really matter what Jesus believed in at the time. A Christian is a person who believed that Christ is your savior, not that they believe in every single thing he did.

The truth is, most people who are Christians reject a literal interpretation of the bible, rather some of the ones I know consider literal interpretation of the bible a sin because you are worshipping what was said in the bible, not God. A form of idol worship.

There is good evidence that most of the stories in the Genesis were ripped right off of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology. It is doubtful that Adam and Eve were ever real people.

Plus, it doesn't seem like you really know the true meaning behind the quotes in the bible, or that there are several different compilations of the Bible. Catholics, for example, have more books than the Protestant bibles and translations. And the Orthodox bible is different then either of them. I can go on and on, but its clear that the bible was not meant to be interpreted literally.


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Here is an example of a moderate christian here: http://www.thechristiandefense.com/post ... html#44863

There is no such book as "The Bible." What people refer to as "The Bible," in its various canons (four major ones), is a compilation of manuscripts which were written over hundreds of years.

Also, texts do not have intention, so it would not make sense to say that a text was "meant" to be interpreted in a certain fashion. Intention lies solely in the minds of the writer and reader of those texts. One could also not conclude that because one writer may have intended to be read in a certain way (historically, figuratively, etc.) that others writers would have had similar intentions. Moreover, writers may change their intention within a single text.

Cheers,

Mark

And which were selected from the thousands of manuscripts that were circulating around in the Middle East and Southern Europe at the time. Selected by a committee appointed by the Emperor Constantine, who was not really a Christian at the time, although he converted shortly before his death. And then the manuscripts were edited.

No it's not a logical fallacy. All christian teaching comes from an AUTHORITATIVE source (the bible), if you can make s**t up then it's not authoritative and useless. Paul HAS the authority of god according to chris,t dumbass. Go read the new testament, God gave authority to christ and christ to the apostles, all the apostles claimed their words were not theirs but GODS are you putting yourselves on their level?

Last edited by ZakFiend on 07 Oct 2007, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

We're talking about christianity here and the aspects of what makes one christian, stop taking this topic OFF TOPIC.

Answer the question: So where does sin come from if it doesn't exist? And god used evolution (millions of years of bloodshed) to produce us, to be saved from what exactly, since we were dead/dying since the beginning? What exactly is he restoring with ressurection? You're making s**t up like usual.

“Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

“As by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men - . . death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression... For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ”.2

“I should like to ask the speaker,” he said, “how he thinks we ought to regard the New Testament’s teaching about salvation? Those two passages (and others) show that Paul regarded Adam as a real man who brought sin and death into the world, and Jesus Christ as another real man who brought back righteousness and a way of eternal life.

“If Paul was mistaken about the very foundation of his teaching, how can we rely upon anything he wrote about salvation? If one of Paul’s two key men-Adam-was a myth, how can we be sure that the other key man-Jesus-wasn’t a myth also?”

i dont think you can be literal when reading the bible because of its many contradictions, and borrowed storys from the sumerians in the early books. i guess thats where you have to have faith or wishful thinking? i cant really see how a book inspired by god can contradic itself so much though! doesnt god know whats up? apparently not

>>If Paul was mistaken about the very foundation of his teaching, how can we rely upon anything he wrote about salvation? If one of Paul’s two key men-Adam-was a myth, how can we be sure that the other key man-Jesus-wasn’t a myth also?<<

That may be true, or it may not be true, but it is not an argument.

Cheers,

Mark

I'm not sure that believing the bible literally necessarily makes one a christian.

Believing in everything in the bible because you think that it is real needn't have anything to do with religious faith. Believing in the bible from start to finish needn't mean that you're a christian. ....

OR does it? ... the simple decision to believe it, all of it,in all its impossible contradiction and irrationality , the designated book of the Christians,mean , by def that you a christian? Rather than nicely fathoming out the "essential" meaning behind it all ! !?

You can't use something within the text that you have chosen to believe in its entirety,as proof that other people who do their christianity differently ( ie: not believing the whole text as it stands)are NOT really christians.
That is what is known as a tautological argument!

What is it that makes you angry about people identifying themselves as Christian when they do not believe in the whole text , nothing but the text etc? Couldn'y you call yourself orthodox or something? Aren't there specific names for different kinds of christianity which would fit what you believe and make it clear?

Or are you not actually christian yourself , you are just accusing most self-declared christians of hypocrisy or self-delusion or pretention? You think people use the label to say they're "nice/respectable people" and that you're fed up of it being shoved in your face as "proof" of their alrightness.

Need clarification. Don't know where you're coming from!! !!

Last edited by ouinon on 08 Oct 2007, 4:04 am, edited 6 times in total.