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ed
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30 Nov 2007, 2:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Nope. Translated into english, that means that taxes are by their nature more than funding the government.

That's not by nature; that's by wealthy people fooling around with the tax code to help themselves.

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30 Nov 2007, 2:55 pm

nbxyz wrote:

You can promote savings all you want, but some people just live week by week, and can't afford anything out of their routine necessities. And others live off pensions which basically pay for you to live.
Savings is a nice concept, but I know many to whom savings is a very, very far away reality.

Ok. That does not mean that on a theoretical level they still couldn't save. Even illegal immigrants send money home.

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And savings does not promote the economy, spending does. Thats why you have the consumer spending index. More people spend, more money goes around, better things are. If everyone kept their money to themselves, then people won't be buying things, then the people selling things can't earn a living, and the companies making things can't pay their employees.
More spending = better economy.
Why does the economy go up usually good in times of war? Because the government is spending money.

Both promote the economy. No, false, a bad interpretation of Keynesian economic theory. The velocity of the dollar does nothing but cause inflation if there isn't growth. Let's just say that the amount of money is M, the number of times a dollar is spent is V, the price level is P, and the output of the economy is Y. If M does not change and our output(Y) does not grow, then increases in V just lead to increases in prices(P). Now, in the short run, it is correct that you can have higher output just from more spending, but you cannot continually have growth from that because the entire reason you have that effect in the first place is because prices aren't adjusting fast enough to the change.

In order to have growth you must have increases in the amount of capital. Increasing capital requires that some people save in order to do that, so they can lend that money to others via banks or the stock market. This increase in capital, based upon saving, is where we get our long-term growth, which is important to the growth of the economy.

You are right, Keynesian stimulus is a part of the deal, and that consumption is necessary, however, that is a very incomplete picture as we do not argue all consumption versus no consumption, only that in the long run, that more capital will help us more than current consumption.

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 30 Nov 2007, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Nov 2007, 2:58 pm

ed wrote:

That's not by nature; that's by wealthy people fooling around with the tax code to help themselves.

Where does the neutral tax code you seem to have in mind originate from? The tax code we have today was set up for a purpose as has every tax code since time began. Your very criticism is simply that you want a tax code for a specific purpose, otherwise it does not matter if the wealthy people do anything to the tax code so long as it still funds the government.

ed
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30 Nov 2007, 3:05 pm

I abhor the notion that we shouldn't tax the rich, because they will take it and invest it into the economy, let the poor and middle classes pay for everything.

I don't care if doing so would bring about the Second Coming; it is still an inherently evil idea.

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30 Nov 2007, 3:06 pm

ed wrote:

Well, if it is inherently evil then can you prove it to be inherently evil so that I may understand?

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30 Nov 2007, 3:08 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

The tax code we have today was set up for a purpose

...and that purpose was to fund the Government. It has morphed over the years into a way to transfer money from the common man to the wealthy.

ed
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30 Nov 2007, 3:10 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Well, if it is inherently evil then can you prove it to be inherently evil so that I may understand?

"Thou shalt not steal" for starters...

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30 Nov 2007, 3:12 pm

ed wrote:

...and that purpose was to fund the Government. It has morphed over the years into a way to transfer money from the common man to the wealthy.

You do recognize that the wealthy pay most of the taxes, don't you? I mean, the bottom 50% of the population only pays 3.3% of income taxes and they get more than 3.3% of government services. Really, if you go this route then we will have to ask what the purpose of government is if taxes are merely a means of funding the government.

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30 Nov 2007, 3:13 pm

ed wrote:

"Thou shalt not steal" for starters...

Well, couldn't I just argue that this applies for most of the taxes on anyone? I mean, there are folks who go around shouting "Taxation is theft!!".

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30 Nov 2007, 3:16 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

we will have to ask what the purpose of government is if taxes are merely a means of funding the government.

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

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30 Nov 2007, 3:18 pm

ed wrote:

Ok, so why not just have an armed forces and police? We could work towards most of that with that very small fraction of the government. I mean, I think you want more than that though, and really, back in those days this was more of a toadying up to the rich as they were the only ones to hold property worth protecting with defense and justice.

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30 Nov 2007, 3:21 pm

And that's why I wish I could support Ron Paul... he is a Libertarian, and I am half-libertarian :lol:

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30 Nov 2007, 3:31 pm

Income taxes should be eliminated.

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ed
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30 Nov 2007, 3:34 pm

Kitsy wrote:

Income taxes should be eliminated.

Well, there goes the government... you must like chaos.

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30 Nov 2007, 3:37 pm

Kitsy wrote:

Income taxes should be eliminated.

Fortunately, we could still wage the glorious war in Iraq, because we don't use income taxes to pay for it, we just borrow the money from China and Japan. :lol:

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30 Nov 2007, 3:54 pm

The government is a neccesary keeper of law and order in its most basic form. Law good. Anarchy horrific.

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