can you people tell me something (and don't lie)?

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It wasn't always that way. It's a sign that the world is coming to an end.

This topic isn't even about homophobia and racism, so I have no idea why you brought it up.

But there was a time when intelligence, respect etc. were valued.

Yes, I've noticed this as well. I think, if you want to survive, you have to somewhat "adopt" the values of the society, as warped as they admittedly are, from a more objective standpoint. Virtue seems like its good for its own sake, but it really isn't. You pay for your "virtues" as well as your vices. Give them back what they have given to you. Dishonest people don't deserve your honesty, disloyal people don't deserve your loyalty, etc.



>>>Look, why does this society seem to VALUE negative characteristics in people, such as dishonesty, selfishness, >>>>egoism, apathy, stupidity, group think, while SCORNING people who speak of positive values such as honesty, >>>loyalty, selflessness, integrity, respect, determination, drive, intelligence, and individuality?

Does the long run necessarily matter to him when he makes the decision? There are all sorts of situations where normal people trade off a long run end for a short run end, the crack head's condition is just rather extreme. Why is it necessarily wrong?

Well, many acts aimed at the short run also take away from the long run. The issue is trade-offs. What basis do we label one trade off as good and another bad?

People want to be lazy, because they want everyone to do everything for them and not have to worry about lifting a finger!

That is the truth. I even want to be lazy...but truth me told...everyone HAS to do something in society.

When the concept of "time" is associated with: money, a path towards heaven, or secular, non-monetary existentialism (seeking solace in neither money nor religion), what you have are people who are using up their mortal time to establish some kind of sequential worth tied to their own lives. Each individual uses his/her mortal time juggling memes regarding money, heaven, and/or secular, non-monetary solace.

When you have billions of jugglers, you're bound to have people not paying attention where they're going or where they're at. The juggling routine of one person bumps into the juggling routine of anther person, balls go flying over the place. People get defensive about their juggling routines and don't want to start over, learn new ways to juggle, or juggle new things.

I actually don't know what I'm talking about now. It made sense to me at first, but now it seems to have gotten away from me... My apologies.

But I do believe that an individual's concept of: time, his/her place on this earth, and his/her sequential worth; shall color every judgement the individual has with regards to the self, other people, and the world. Not everyone shares the same: concept of time, place on this earth, or sense of sequential worth; so differing value systems emerge among billions of people which allows for many possible contrarian definitions of what is "cohesive" or "abnormal".

Enough of my ramblings.

Last edited by aguales on 31 Dec 2007, 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

I couldn't have put it better.

So nice to see someone else with the same faith as I have that this will happen. Things may be looking bad right now, but look around you everyone, things are changing slowly but surely... people are waking up, we're reaching that critical mass. Just keep thinking positive and putting those good thoughts of hope out there. Believe in good things and they will happen.

I agree completely. Compassion and the moral "high ground" is now considered stupidity by the anti-religious, politically correct, who relate anything along the lines of "the right thing" as religious/conservative/politically incorrect.

Ignorance is the opiate of the masses, and the tool of the few.

Dysfunctional families very often breed dysfunctional children. And they can come in all shapes and sizes. Children need to learn respect and everything that makes a person generally nice and functional, not just their ABCs.

The crackhead will fail at life, that's justice enough for me. But at the same time, they are in need of help. Do we just sit and let people die from drugs and stupidity? Or do we show everyone what's respectful, nice, and will give them and most people around them long-term fulfilment and wellbeing. It seems rather sad and cruel to just let them suffer gradually. After all, every day is a battle between positive and negative actions and outcomes. Depends, in that case. But negative things must be shown for what they are... counter to the wellbeing of the human race as a whole.

I know that some individualists don't like any feeling of unity, responsibility, or discipline, but I stand by it.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good people to do nothing"

Yeah, I altered 'men' to 'people'.

The right winger overly religious folks are just as guilty of this though, don't you think?

You know, I used to wonder that, seeing everywhere, people around and the media, it seemed to me exactly like that, like people glorifing negative attitudes, but that could be just me being negative.

Some of it, but most of the positive characteristics you describe are mostly condemned by PC and anti-religious groups.

Mainstream religions such as Christianity claim to stand for "morality" and wellbeing, amongst other things, even though many are hypocritical in some way.

I believe that alot of supposed religious morality is beneficial, at least when practised right. Respect, selflessness, compassion, etc. Not the religion itself exactly.

But you shouldn't really need religion to practice such basic positive behavior.

Well society will never say they value "dishonesty, selfishness, egoism, apathy, stupidity, group think." Society doesn't value stupidity, it's just intelligent people are out casted in a way. Most people use dishonesty and egoism to get ahead in society in the sense of becoming financially successful, and that is valued in society. Group think is valued since they don't want to be contradicted as they believe they are the majority and have more power. There are also too many intolerant people in the world who can't realize that others don't think the way they do. Also, because of the way society already is, it is very hard to change it and most people get sucked in thinking the way society wants.

Some of those positive traits are valued but people who display those characteristics are vulnerable and there will always be people who are selfish and take advantage of those people. To society, it seems that having virtuous traits will only hurt you in return and that also leads people towards being negative.

I don't think ignorance feels good and never have.

I don't believe that "a cohesive and tolerant, functioning society is evil" but do realize many faults with society. I may complain a lot about the way society is but I firmly believe it will always be better than anarchy. I personally don't get the impression that many people feel the way you expressed in the last three sentences. People may be bored with their lives and seek to be unique but I don't see many people believing "dysfunction is 'normal.'"

Its actually one of the signs of "The Last Days" from the Bible, when what is bad is good, and what is good is bad.

So I guess it wasnt allways like this, in fcat you only have to watch a few old films to see this is a recent trend.

"It is my eyes which see, and the sight of my eyes grants beauty to the earth. It is my ears which hear, and the hearing of my ears gives its song to the world. It is my mind which thinks, and the judgment of my mind is the only searchlight that can find the truth. It is my will which chooses, and the choice of my will is the only edict I must respect." - Ayn Rand, Anthem


For all those here the point at selfishness and egoism and declare them bankrupt, I shall say that I am selfish and egoistic and I am not bankrupt. And I care not what aspersions are directed at my values by those who already denigrate them. I speak only to those who have yet to make judgment.

You're life is your own, make of it what you will.

I would't use film as a reference point for comparing modern society's value of morals against yesterday's, or the "old ways." Remember when film firs started there were very little regulations until the Catholic church and other institutions got involved and censored everything, or made sure that any movie that churned out of Hollywood provided morals and exempted from showing certain lifestyles that were alive and well at that time. When you watch old movies, you should view them as how people at that time wanted life to be, and not reality.