zeitgeist--a movie about elitism, 9/11, and you

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Without dismissing the possibility of government complicity out of hand (I don't have the time or attention span at the moment to watch the movie, but I will try to later this week), I will invoke Occam's Razor. From what I've heard of these theories before, they generally point out inconsistencies/impossibilities in the "official story" and then, having discredited it, advance their own alternative. A more likely explanation for any of these inconsistencies than a vast conspiracy that creates another conspiracy to cover its tracks may be simply that it was a confusing day, so reports were not always reliable, and the 9/11 Commission did a piss-poor job because people were eager to find someone to blame as quickly as possible and the investigation was rushed.

But I'll go ahead and take a look at the video if I get a chance later this week.

I'd say it's more likely those described in part three of the film... Bush and co are just lackeys like the rest of us, after all.

It bugs me being aspie that these people got their facts all wrong and made stuff up and people actually believe this false information.
Here are REAL FACTS that can be proven
The following refutations can be confirmed easily by encyclopedias and primary sources. The following link was provided by a member of this group. This site provides excerpts from primary sources to discredit the claims by Pagan-Jesus theorists.
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_ ... ities.html

The following are false or misleading statements in the order in which they appear in the movie. The quotations express the ideas presented, hence they are not exact quotations.

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"Horizon" comes from the phrase "Horus has risen."

FALSE. Horizon comes from the Latin "horizon." The Latin word for "rise" is "orior." The word "horizon" has nothing to do with the English word "rise."

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“The term "sunset" is related to the name of the Egyptian God "Set."

FALSE. The English word "set" comes from the Germanic "setzen." Moreover, the battle between Horus and Set represents the power struggle between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt.

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A NOTE ABOUT THE ALLEGED SIMILARITIES AMONG MYTHICAL GODS AND JESUS CHRIST:

Many of the alleged similarities among mythical gods and Jesus Christ are refuted below. However, there are a few authentic similarities among mythical gods and Jesus Christ. But these similarities are either:

1. Superficial or inconsequential (ex. traits such as miracles and immortality are de facto traits of "gods.")

2. Though some mythical gods predate Jesus Christ, their traits which are similar to those of Jesus cannot be found in literary records prior to the composition of the Bible. Many details of mythical gods are preserved by oral transmissions, which cannot be given a reliable pre-Christian date of composition.

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The details of Horus (Egypt 3000BC):

"Born on December 25th."
FALSE. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21st, the winter solstice.

"Born of a virgin."
FALSE. Isis, the mother of Horus, is a goddes. Thus she is not a virgin in the same sense that a human could be. However, Isis became pregnant with Horus when she hovered as a kite over Osiris' dead body - an act which resembles sexual intercourse. The alleged virginity of Isis is due to an assimilation of the infertile god Mut.

"Star in the east announced his birth."
FALSE. There is no such detail.

"Adorned by 3 Kings."
FALSE. There is no such detail.

"Teacher at 12."
FALSE. Horus never assumed a teacher role.

"Baptized at 30."
FALSE. Horus was never baptized. There was never an "Anup the baptizer."

"Had 12 Disciples."
FALSE. Horus had many allies and followers, but there is no mention of "12" disciples.

"Called "Lamb of God"/"the Light"."
FALSE. The only titles of Horus are "Great God”, “Chief of the Powers”, “Master of Heaven”, and “Avenger of His Father”.

"Crucified."
FALSE. Horus does not have an official death account. In an unofficial account, Horus is cast into pieces into water.

"Dead for 3 Days."
FALSE. In the unofficial account in which Horus dies, he dies for an indefinite duration of time.

"Resurrected."
The Egyptian god Osiris, not Horus, resurrected.

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The details of Attis (Greece 1200BC):

"Born of a virgin."
FALSE. Attis was the son and lover of Cybele.

"Crucified."
FALSE. Attis is simply depicted as an effigy on a stake during some Roman festivals.

"Dead for 3 days."
FALSE. The "3 days" are the days from when an effigy of Attis is buried and when the resurrection festivities begin.

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The details of Krishna (India 900BC):

"Born of a virgin."
FALSE. Krishna was born to princess Devaki and to her husband Vasudeva.

"Born on December 25th."
FALSE. Krishna's traditional birth date is July 19th.

"Crucified."
FALSE. Krishna receives a mortal wound to the heel by a hunter mistaking Krishna for a deer.

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The details of Dionysus (Greece 200AD):

"Born of a virgin."
FALSE. A god impregnated Semele, the mother of Dionysus. Dionysus was later reborn on the thighs of Zeus after his mother had died. Dionysus is a demigod, but his birth is not a virgin birth.

"Born on December 25th."
FALSE. The birth of Dionysus was celebrated on January 6th.

"Performed the miracle of turning water to wine."
MISLEADING. The earliest known source for this tradition comes from Achilles Tatius's novel, "Leucippe and Cleitophon," which was written no earlier than the second century AD. Hence this tradition could not have influenced the Bible.

“Called "king of kings"“
FALSE. The only “king of kings,” if there is any in Greek mythology, is Zeus. However, the term “king of kings” is a Hebraic superlative. Greek does not use such a phrase.

"Crucified."
FALSE. The idea of Dionysus' crucifixion comes from an image of an amulet which shows a crucified figure with the name of Bacchus (Dionysus) inscribed on the bottom. The amulet was created no earlier than two centuries after the crucifixion of Jesus.

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The details of Mithra (Persia 1200BC):

"Born of a virgin."
FALSE. Mithra was born from a rock.

"12 Disciples."
This detail, as with the remainder, are not based on any actual beliefs of ancient adherents of the cult of Mithra (Mithras in Greek). There are no written works of antiquity that outline such details of Mithra. Our knowledge of Mithra comes primarily from iconography from the second and third centuries and oral transmissions. Hence, even if there are details of Mithra today that are similar to those of Jesus, such details are recent developments most likely influenced by Christianity.

"Dead for 3 days."
FALSE. Mithra has never died.

"Mithra resurrected."
FALSE. Mithra has never died.

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"There are dozens of crucified, virgin-born saviours from around the world."

FALSE. There simply aren't.

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"Three kings visited Jesus."

FALSE. The Bible does not say that there were three kings. The number of kings is not specified in the Bible. The concept of the "three kings" is popular folklore (from Christmas carols, etc.). Thus, the point about the three stars ("three kings") of Orion's belt following Sirius ("the star in the east") has no connection to the nativity account in the Bible.

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"Jesus Christ was born on December 25th."

False. Christ's birth is celebrated on December 25th to coincide with a Pagan holiday which the Western Church attempted to supplant, but Christians know that that is not the birth date of Christ. Christmas is a tradition which has no effect on theology.

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"The birth sequence of Jesus is completely astronomical."

FALSE. The movie provides selective evidence. The movie shows the astronomy of the three stars following Sirius which point to the sun, supposedly paralleling some events related to the birth of Jesus. However, there is no such parallel. There are no "three" kings in the biblical account. Thus there is no parallel between the Bible and the three stars of Orion's belt. Furthermore, without the three stars as valid referrence points, Sirius cannot be said to be pointing to the sun.

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"The term "sun" is related to the term "son" (Jesus)."

FALSE. The two terms coincidentally sound the same only in English. The Bible was not written in English.

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"Myrra (mother of Adonis) and Maya (mother of Buddha) were virgin mothers."

FALSE. In the most common version of the story, Myrra the mother of Adonis committed incest to give birth to Adonis. In an alternate story, Adonis is born when Myrra, being turned into a tree, is struck by an arrow (phallic imagery). Maya the mother of Buddha was married to King Suddhodhana. The dream of her conception is not a dream of virgin birth, but rather of the soul of Buddha entering her womb.

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"Names of virgin mothers begin with the letter "M"."

FALSE. Myrra and Maya were not virgin mothers.

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"Bethlehem, literally meaning "house of bread," is only a place in the sky in the constellation Virgo."

FALSE. Bethlehem means "house of bread." However, Bethlehem is a real town in Palestine. The attribution of the birthplace of Jesus to Bethlehem is based on lineage and prophecy rather than astrology. Bethlehem is the hometown of King David according to the Old Testament (1 Samuel 17:12). Also, the messiah is prophesied to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). It is far-fetched to assume that Bethlehem refers to the constellation Virgo, since Virgo, in some depictions, merely show a woman harvesting - a common agrarian occupation for a virgin.

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"The crucifixion and resurrection story of Jesus Christ is based on the constellation of the southern cross."

FALSE. The constellation of the southern cross was created in the seventeenth century by Catholics. Previously, the stars of the southern cross were part of the constellation of Centaurus.

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"The frequency of the number 12 in the Bible (as with the 12 disciples) is based on the 12 constellations of the zodiac."

FALSE. The dozen has been a common grouping system from primitive times due to its convenient multiples and divisors. A dozen can be easily broken down into two halves, groups of pairs, groups of threes, and groups of fours. Thus the dozen is convenient for organization.

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"There are 12 Old Testament prophets."

FALSE. There are at least 16.

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"There are 12 princes of Israel."

FALSE. There are many princes of Israel, far more than 12.

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"The Christian cross is a Pagan adaptation of the cross of the zodiac."

FALSE. The Christian cross is an adaptation of the Roman cross, the cross on which Jesus was crucified. Crucifixion is a well documented form of execution used by the Romans.

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"Jesus in early art is always shown with his head in front of the cross."

FALSE. The movie presents selective evidence of a few art with this criteria, and makes a gross generalization.

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The "crown of thorns" are "sun rays."

FALSE. The crown of thorns is a false crown created by the Romans in order to mock the supposed fact that Jesus was the king of the Jews.

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"The Israelites worshipped the "Golden Bull" because they were in the age of Taurus."

FALSE. The Israelites worshipped an idol of a bull because that was the custom of Egypt from whence they came. Egypt had many bull cults - the Apis bull cult and the Buchis bull cult. The bull was revered because of its necessity to the livelihood of human beings and their strength.

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"Mithra kills a bull to symbolize the end of the Age of Taurus."

FALSE. Mithra slew a divine bull so that its body parts could assist mankind. The bull's blood produced the vine, its spinal cord brought forth wheat and the bull's sperm created each type of useful animal known to man

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"Fish symbolism is very abundant in the New Testament."

FALSE. Though there are several references to fish in seaside narratives, the fish symbolism is not "abundant," surely not abundant enough to be considered the chief theme of Christianity. There are certainly more sheep imagery than fish imagery.

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"The Pope's hat is a fish head, representing Pieces."

FALSE. The design of the Papal Mitre is based on the mitre of Cybele - a pre-Christian Roman deity which wore a mitre shaped like a fish head.

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"The "Jesus fish" is a Pagan astrological symbol."

FALSE. The "fish" has come to represent Jesus because the acronym of "Jesus Christ, Son Of God" in Greek becomes "Ichthus," which means "fish" in Greek.

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"Luke 22:10 (a man bearing a pitcher of water) is an astrological allusion to the coming age of Aquarius."

FALSE. A man bearing a pitcher of water is not an allusion to Aquarius. The constellation Aquarius depicts the pouring of water. Also, this detail in the Gospel is far too trivial. In the Bible there are countless instances of people going about doing menial tasks. The movie ignores the thousands of other depictions of menial taks and showcases this trivial detail as if there is something profound about it. Also, there is no logical relevance between disciples going to this man's house to celebrate the passover and to the supposed admonition of Jesus to advance into the age of Aquarius.

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"The "world" in Matthew 28:20 is a mistranslation. Aeon means "age.""

FALSE. Aeon could mean both "age" and "world," depending ... Aeon could mean "world" as an aspect of time.

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"The concept of the end of the world is a misinterpreted astrological allegory"

FALSE. The concept of the end of the world is based on a reasonable straight-forward reading of the Bible. The extremely construed "astrological allegory" is more prone to misinterpretation.

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"Details of the image from the temple of Luxor tells of the virgin birth of Horus."

FALSE. The image from the Temple of Luxor is about Amenhotep III's portrayal of his wife as Neith, the mother of Ra. The "virgin birth" depicted in the image is an impregnation caused by the power of the ankh, an Egyptian symbol of life and fertility.

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"The story of Noah's ark is taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh."

FALSE. A factual statement is that the two accounts bear remarkable similarities. It is not factual to claim that one account plagiarized the other. The two accounts could have been two separate accounts of the same events. For example, there are many accounts of World War II. It would be foolish to explain a similarity among these accounts on the plagiarism of several accounts on a single authentic account. The relative late publication of an account bears no effect on the authenticity of that account.

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"The story of baby Moses is taken from the story of Sargon's birth."

FALSE. The story of Sargon's birth comes from the "Neo-Assyrian Sargon Legend," a story created after the creation of the Old Testament. The oldest cuneiform tablet of Sargon's legend is from the 1st century BC.

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"The name of "Moses" is derived from "Nemo" of Babylon, "Manou" of India, "Minos" of Crete, "Mises" of Egypt."

FALSE. "Moses" is the Egyptian word for "son." (ex. "Thutmose" means "son of Thoth", and Rameses means "son of Ra"). Moses was a Hebrew child named and raised by Egyptian parents.

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"The 10 Commandments were taken from Chapter 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead."

FALSE. The Book of the Dead lists numerous virtues. The majority of these are common virtues that are prevalent in most theistic civil societies. The virtues include obedience to God and proper conduct with fellow humans. The Book of the Dead, however, does not list the Hebrew virtues of monotheism (first commandment), prohibition of idol possession (second commandment), observance of the Sabbath (fourth commandment), and obedience to parents (fifth commandment).

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"Justin Martyr argues that the seemingly coincidental similarity between Pagan myths and the Christian account are the works of the devil."

MISLEADING. The movie makes it seem as though the Greek myths of Bacchus and Perseus predated Christian concepts of the God/Man and the virgin birth, and that Justin Martyr tries to conveniently gloss over the similarities as works of the devil. However, a full quote of Justin's writings shows that he suggested that the devil "imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses" (Dial, with Trypho, ch. lxix; ANF. i, 233.). There are prophecies in the Old Testament which speak of the God/Man (Isaiah 9:6) and the virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14). These Old Testament prophecies predate the Greek myths. Thus Justin Martyr believed that the Greek myths plagiarized elements of the Jewish scriptures (the Old Testament of Christianity).

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"Creationists believe that God placed dinosaur fossils to test their faith."

FALSE. Creationists (young-earth) believe that dinosaurs are extinct reptiles that once lived with man.

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"The depiction of fully grown dinosaurs (Sauropods) asking "which way to the ark?""

MISLEADING. Creationists posit that the dinosaurs that boarded the ark, if any did, were infants, as small as an adult sheep.

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"The Bible is nothing more than an astrological literary hybrid."

FALSE. The movie uses selective evidence to reduce the Bible to this categorization. However, the Bible is a long and exhaustive book covering many accounts, themes, stories, and teachings.

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The details of the Old Testament Joseph:

"Had a miracle birth."
FALSE. The birth of Joseph was not miraculous.

"Had 12 brothers."
FALSE. Joseph had 11 brothers.

"Began work at age 30."
FALSE. There is no mention of the exact age of Joseph when he began "working".

"The parallels between Jesus and Joseph go on and on."
FALSE. They do not.

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"Jesus is not mentioned by any historian."

FALSE and MISLEADING. Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian, Celsus, and the Talmud Sanhedrin 43a mention Jesus or refer to him by his common title, the Christ. The movie misleads the audience by withholding the fact that these prominent historians were Roman and that they showed little interest in Judea (Israel/Palestine) in general. An interesting point is that Celsus, an avid critic of Christianity, critiques the teachings and morality of Jesus, but does not doubt his historicity.

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"The account of Jesus by Josephus is a fraud."

FALSE. The majority of scholars think that the account of Josephus is authentic. There are arguments against the authenticity of this account, but the same goes with all historical accounts of antiquity.

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"Tacitus' account of the "Christ" cannot be considered a referrence of Jesus."

FALSE. "Christ (Messiah)" is actually a more certain name than "Jesus," for there were many generic "Jesus'" in Judea during the time. In comparison, those who were called "Christ" were few, if any. Furthermore, the "Christ" that fits the descriptions given by Tacitus is most likely Jesus.

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"Christianity is a Roman story developed politically."

FALSE. Christianity is a middle-eastern movement that initially spread to Africa, Asia, and Europe. The earliest prominent churches were Syrian, Coptic (Egyptian), and of other middle-eastern cultures. Though the Roman church achieved successful hegemony in Western Europe, the Christian faith continued in Eastern Europe, Africa, and Asia under their non-Roman leadership.

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"The Council of Nicaea is when the New Testament was firmly defined."

FALSE. The Council of Nicaea addressed the matter of the Arian controversy, among many other matters of doctrine. The New Testament had been already established prior to the Council of Nicaea. The New Testament was never defined in bureaucratic councils prior to the Council of Trent in 1546 when the Catholic Church defined their New Testament which included the Apocrypha against the Protestant New Testament which did not contain the Apocrypha.

Interesting... where do you get your info from, out of interest? Not doubting it, just curious and not entirely sure where to start (I don't entirely trust google to show me anything of much value!).


As to 9/11, occams razor states that the simplest explanation is usually the right one? Well, it seems a helluva lot more complicated to say a bunch of men learnt how to fly, snuck into the US, hijacked planes, flew them into buildings, defied the laws of physics and made steel melt from the impact, killed thousands of people, collapsed another building without ever having touched it (perhaps they were telekinetic?), left no debris or evidence of who they were, then several of the people who were meant to have died in the wreckage turned up alive and well - a miracle! - over the following months with no idea how to fly these planes, and it was all controlled by one guy from a cave in Afghanistan who they still can't find despite having sattelite tracking though should be able to locate almost anyone in the world to within a few hundred yards......


Or it was an inside job, engineers put the bombs in place which explains exactly what happened to the buildings, flew their own planes into the buildings, put a missile into the pentagon, killed lots of people, and had the perfect excuse for the 'war on terror' and invasion of the middle east to set up a base there and control the oil.

I think ive seen those on a forum before (probably copied everywhere now though) - googling a sentence or two should take you there.

Its from a facebook group called zeitgeist part 1 debunked. I helped contribute to the research. Being a big nerd when it comes to history, astronomy, mythology, religion, political science, science etc. I was able to notice errors right away.

The impact never melted the structural steel. the fire caused by the impact weakened (WEAKENED, NOT MELTED) the steel enough to cause the floors to start collapsing on top of each-other, causing a domino effect that took the towers down. The conspiracy nuts have a tendency of not knowing what the heck they are even talking about.

Can I please throw in something really simple that blows the entire 'official story' right out of the water?

It's quite simple, it's not controversial, I promise...

It's called:

THE LAWS OF PHYSICS


It's physically impossible for those planes to have brought those towers down. That's cold, hard, scientific fact.


Read Steven Jones' paper on it, very interesting:
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volu ... llapse.pdf


Also, did you watch Part 2 of Zeitgeist? It starts at 42mins into the film, have a look and you'll see the eyewitness reports and footage explaining how the planes couldn't possibly have been responsible for the collapses.

And how do you explain WTC 7 collapsing in exactly the same way as the main two towers without ever being hit by a plane?!

There's an interesting theory the 9/11 commission wrote about fire being responsible for tower 7's collapse as well. Guess they planned to hijack another plane, which went wrong, so the big guys decided to blow up the tower before the shaped charges and thermate would be discovered.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7txqZrHHypE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ene0lEa6Ifc[/youtube]

New Radicals!

I love that song...


It's still shocking to watch, isn't it? I remember it happening and our teacher pulling us out of class on the other side of the world so we could watch the live coverage on TV - she told us "Right kids, I hate to say it but this is the beginning of a war like nothing we've ever seen, and it's going to be far more important than learning a bunch of maths you'll probably never use or knowing advance English grammar, so we're just going to watch this this morning, I want you to all remember this as it won't go away for a long, long time..."


iamnotaparakeet, I know you're Christian so the first part of Zeitgeist might not really appeal or you might not want to watch it, but parts two and three aren't related to religion and are the ones you really need to see. So with that in mind, here's part two - The part about 9/11 - for you (sorry, it's youtube so it's in parts). Possibly one of the most important pieces of film you could ever see.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeSDOb7NcgE[/youtube]

Man, this discussion came out of nowhere!! ! I was trying to cover up my hyperbolic adoration for this doco.

While posting this topic I still had some contradicting thoughts on the back of my head.

Part I, First and foremost was the "sun" and "son" thing. Hebrew and Greek wouldn't have the same correlation would it? Many mystics make blind observations, but to base everything on the "Mazzaroth" as the Bible calls the zodiac may be non-sequitor since there was also cataclysmic weather patterns, insects and microorganisms to fear.

Part II has opposing blames. This movie puts the government 100% for blame. Now consider ABC's The Path to 9/11. The gov. is about 60% on that one. Which one can retain more water?

Part III discusses the Federal Reserve System. "Which is as Federal as Federal Express". This is a system harnessed by war, much like monetary systems before it. What makes this any different? Other than the fact that there are now devices that can kill the whole species. The System develops a heavy global economy, but I think there is another agenda. We are 2.2% in national debt while the more productive free nations are saving money. Might it be true that the only role the US plays is the world's consumer? Fewer folks have been wanting sci-engineering jobs here, but we are proud of runaway capitalism.

What was 'The Path To 9/11'?? I haven't seen that one so can't really comment! I simply see it as the government being behind it, but the 'shadow government' (for want of a better term!!) being the true 'masterminds' (again, for want of a better word) behind it.

As for the world bankers... what other agenda do you mean? Discuss!

I'm very interested in hearing this from the perspective of someone a bit closer to it all.