any conceived notion can be doubted

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Bollinger
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25 Mar 2008, 9:35 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Have I insulted you?

I'm reasonably sure that you haven't intentionally insulted me. But our points of view of so very different that it seems we're destined to rub each other the wrong way, if we don't completely avoid each other. Even now it's hard for me to think of a way to continue which wouldn't be insulting to you. You believe in your church, and I believe all religion is a relic from more primitive times, which preserves and even encourages many of the worst human traits and hinders many of the best ones. You think your way could save me. I think my way could help you. We're not both right.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

All people have zero doubts about what they actually believe

I don't believe you have much of a clue about "all people." Why assume than none of them are more sophisticated than you when it comes to self-criticism?

NewRotIck wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Any conceived notion can be doubted.

I doubt that notion.

Or do I? :scratch:

Har! Me like!

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twoshots
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25 Mar 2008, 9:43 pm

Bollinger wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

All people have zero doubts about what they actually believe

I don't believe you have much of a clue about "all people." Why assume than none of them are more sophisticated than you when it comes to self-criticism?

What iamnotaparakeet said seems tautologous to me.

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iamnotaparakeet
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25 Mar 2008, 11:29 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Theoretical: you seek a perfect model of explanation.

Practical: you use a working model.

E.g. Bohr model compared to the Quantum mechanical model. The Bohr model, although technically not valid on all points, yields usable and accurate predictions about atomic spectra and only requires a working knowledge of Algebra. The Quantum mechanical model is more technically valid than the Bohr model, yet it requires a couple years beyond Calculus just to understand the math. Which model is used by technicians when determining the elements in a substance? Many technicians with Bachelors know the QM model surely, but is it what is used? Is it necessary to use the perfect model when a simpler one does the job that you're after (in this case, determining the elements in a sample via the atomic spectra)?

This is not a physics problem though or any other problem where the framework being used is clearly defined, this is a philosophical problem where one of the issues is a lack of valid epistemological frameworks as those can be doubted too. There is nothing that can be defined as "working" as the regress argument is an argument that literally all things can be questioned.

So basically, philosophy, no matter how well reasoned, is not based on concrete facts and can be challenged and overturned?

Awesomelyglorious
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25 Mar 2008, 11:30 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

So basically, philosophy, no matter how well reasoned, is not based on concrete facts and can be challenged and overturned?

Essentially yes, regressions go on infinitely and so we cannot find any true foundations. True foundations demand something that logic cannot understand.

iamnotaparakeet
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25 Mar 2008, 11:43 pm

twoshots wrote:

Bollinger wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

All people have zero doubts about what they actually believe

I don't believe you have much of a clue about "all people." Why assume than none of them are more sophisticated than you when it comes to self-criticism?

What iamnotaparakeet said seems tautologous to me.

What they actually believe and what they claim to believe are two different things with some degree of overlap. A statement of beliefs, creed, etc, are usually full of lies to fit in with a society.

It's sort of a tautology, because it goes by the Biblical Greek definition of belief (which is basically to have no doubts about something because you are presently experiencing it (like, would you doubt a chair's ability to support you if you are sitting in it?)). Tautologies are usually "it is because it is" though.

matrix
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25 Mar 2008, 11:56 pm

slowmutant wrote:

slowmutant sez:

Any conceived notion can be doubted. Any idea can be challenged.

This applies to everything, every thought anyone ever had on this Earth.

Knowing, not-knowing ...

Believing, not-believing ...

Thinking, not-thinking ...

Feeling, not-feeling ...

Hmph. The Christian faith is spit upon while L. Ron Hubbard keeps winning converts. :roll:

I doubt the definition of concieved, notion, idea, challenged, knowing, believing thinking and feeling are exactwitho your thought(s). I doubt that I actually submitted this post, that the internet exists. I doubt that my hands are typing this. I doubt that WP exists. I doubt that Alex Prank exists. I doubt that I exist. I doubt my own breathing and eating.

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Awesomelyglorious
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26 Mar 2008, 12:02 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

It's sort of a tautology, because it goes by the Biblical Greek definition of belief (which is basically to have no doubts about something because you are presently experiencing it (like, would you doubt a chair's ability to support you if you are sitting in it?)). Tautologies are usually "it is because it is" though.

Well, I think Sartre used belief in a similar manner.

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:

To believe is to know you believe, and to know you believe is not to believe.

It it is still a tautology as by stating belief in the definition you did, you simply said something on the same lines as "green things are green".

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