Atheism as a belief

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matsuiny2004
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27 Mar 2008, 8:42 pm

Decided to change from religion to belief, it jsut seems like a mroe correct term.

Orwell
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27 Mar 2008, 8:51 pm

NewRotIck wrote:

Orwell wrote:

And [agnosticism is] certainly not a religion, because the person isn't ascribing to any set of beliefs.

That's not necessarily true. Some agnostics believe that God is unknowable, or that its existance cannot be proven or disproven. I would call that a belief. Weak agnosticism in the sense of "I don't know if there is a God, or what its nature may be if it does exist" is not a belief, though.

I do love the edited quotes. I was referring to most "agnostics" I know/ have heard of, who in my view should be counted as atheists. People who simply don't give religion any thought, and don't believe anything one way or the other. These people generally call themselves agnostics, and they are who I was referring to. Agnosticism properly should only refer to the first view you present; the carefully reasoned belief that it is impossible to truly know God.

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27 Mar 2008, 9:07 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:

I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.

It depends on the atheist.

I would say that the majority of the time "atheism" is a consistent interpretation of my behavior and thoughts inasmuch as there is an absence of belief in God (or God-like entity). However, being an agnostic, I do not believe there is no God. Hence, I am an atheist without belief.

There is a difference between a positive atheist and a metacognitive atheist, if that makes sense.

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27 Mar 2008, 10:29 pm

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. It's not a religious belief, it is a lack of one.

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Bollinger
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27 Mar 2008, 11:54 pm

Odin wrote:

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color

Har! Me like!

Maybe they keep insisting that we're religious because they have a hard time imagining people who are significantly different than they are?

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Awesomelyglorious
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28 Mar 2008, 12:28 am

Bollinger wrote:

Maybe they keep insisting that we're religious because they have a hard time imagining people who are significantly different than they are?

It is probably because they tend towards different frameworks. Some religious people have made the assertion that all mankind orients itself towards some form of deity, taking the term loosely to mean whatever we are passionate about and whatever comprises our moral center. This can be seen by this quote by Karl Barth:

Karl Barth wrote:

There is, moreover, no religion, no philosophy, no world view that is not dedicated to some such divinity

The ultimate issue falls down to definitions, as really nobody follows a fully logical path.

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28 Mar 2008, 12:45 am

There is frequently much value given to a statement because an authority has proclaimed something worthwhile in the past. But this is no indication that any statement by the individual must be accepted without consideration. Barth's statement is merely a personal viewpoint by an individual without the imagination to conceive that a person can form a viewpoint of the universe without an imaginary superior being. Evidently it is impossible for him to exist within the context of a universe without a deity. I have other values. To claim that not believing in a god is some sort of religion is like claiming that there is no reason to assume lobsters exist on Mars is somehow a fundamental reconfiguration of the universe.

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28 Mar 2008, 12:54 am

Sand wrote:

I never said that at all or even suggested it. I posted to lend extra credence but not to rest solely on the explanatory power of a particular theologian.

Quote:

Barth's statement is merely a personal viewpoint by an individual without the imagination to conceive that a person can form a viewpoint of the universe without an imaginary superior being.

No, it is a statement reflecting an unusual definition of the term "deity" in order to create an odd but now tautological statement.

Quote:

Evidently it is impossible for him to exist within the context of a universe without a deity. I have other values. To claim that not believing in a god is some sort of religion is like claiming that there is no reason to assume lobsters exist on Mars is somehow a fundamental reconfiguration of the universe.

Well, he sees the world through a deity-centric framework, and that was my entire point. Honestly, I did not directly defend the OP so much as argue that the framework under which the OP was conceived was different than the one that its detractors submit to. Nowhere does it say in Karl Barth's statement that all atheists belong to the same religion(the requirement for atheism to be a religion in and of itself), the claim was that all human frameworks could be understood as religions, particularly that Karl Barth did just that. This is ultimately just a statement on the human need for irrational emotional connections to certain ideas or things, and that non-faith based frameworks were non-existent.

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28 Mar 2008, 2:20 am

I don't believe or think about god, god has no part in my life. So how is that a belief?

Athesism is a dumb word, it is kind of like saying you believe in nothing (because that is what god it to me).

Say if you made up a word to describe someone that didn't believe in lepricorns. It would be kind of stupid.

I'd rather be called non religious.

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28 Mar 2008, 3:00 am

MR_BOGAN wrote:

Say if you made up a word to describe someone that didn't believe in lepricorns. It would be kind of stupid

If the majority of the people of the world believed in leprichauns, and many of them thought that everyone should belive in them, for their own good, and if you could hardly go anywhere or do anything without hearing people praising leprichauns and blaming all the world's ills on the lack of belief in leprichauns, then it wouldn't be so stupid to have a word which described the state of not believing in leprichauns.

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gekitsu
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28 Mar 2008, 3:28 am

Bollinger wrote:

Odin wrote:

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color

Har! Me like!

Maybe they keep insisting that we're religious because they have a hard time imagining people who are significantly different than they are?

errr..no.

there is a difference between making a statement concerning metaphysical matters (all kinds of theism as well as atheism) and not making any statements - thats the whole difference that matters.
to top it all off, i never met anyone as similar to fundamentalist religious people as militant atheists. their "proofs" lack the same kind of substance.

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28 Mar 2008, 5:06 am

Bollinger wrote:

MR_BOGAN wrote:

Say if you made up a word to describe someone that didn't believe in lepricorns. It would be kind of stupid

I guess so, because if I didn't believe in leprichauns I would be a minority so I would seem unusual.

hmmm athesism is almost a word used to percecute me in a way. I read on WP, a christian person said they wanted to ban athesism , I thought that was a bit bizzar because how can you stop me from believing in something I don't believe in. Unless you force me to believe in something I don't.

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28 Mar 2008, 5:57 am

For me if I believed in god then switched to not believing in god. Then athesism would be a belief.

Since I have never believed in god, atheisism isn't a belief for me.

iamnotaparakeet
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28 Mar 2008, 6:58 am

gekitsu wrote:

Bollinger wrote:

Odin wrote:

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color

Har! Me like!

Maybe they keep insisting that we're religious because they have a hard time imagining people who are significantly different than they are?

That's funny. Their "proofs" being proclaimed loudly, while any voice to the contrary is mocked and told to shut up. Whose ideology is being taught in state-run schools? Etc. Their views are usually held with such fervor and passion as to be rightfully called a religion.

No, this isn't the case for all atheists, but the lot that I've met are mostly militant which is who I'm referring to here.

Griff
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28 Mar 2008, 7:05 am

gekitsu wrote:

Griff wrote:

matsuiny2004 wrote:

I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.

Deism is as false, in the eyes of science, as it is possible for something to be. It is unsupported and unsupportable.

deism as a very concept falls so far outside the scope of science that science can not make a single statement about it. that includes claims on falsification.

That was the point. It cannot answer the questions that scientists ask.

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28 Mar 2008, 8:09 am

Griff wrote:

gekitsu wrote:

Griff wrote:

matsuiny2004 wrote:

I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.

Deism is as false, in the eyes of science, as it is possible for something to be. It is unsupported and unsupportable.

deism as a very concept falls so far outside the scope of science that science can not make a single statement about it. that includes claims on falsification.

That was the point. It cannot answer the questions that scientists ask.

But science cannot claim that deism is false. Religion simply falls outside the bounds of science, so even bothering to bring science into religious debates is pointless.

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