Evil Exists

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Aliens exist, and some aliens are evil. So yeah.

What is the definition of evil being used for this poll?

i.e. by what standard are you judging the holocaust as evil?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU[/youtube]

evil is an idea, and what qualifies as evil is a matter of personal perception. if there are things that you consider to be evil in your perception of the world then for you evil does exist. its as simple as that.

How does that make it not evil? Hitler apparently did not think he was evil, but proclaimed he was doing a great good. Yet, he was still evil. If he thought he was doing good, he was incorrect. And the same can also be said for many other famous leaders in history.

Last edited by Ragtime on 28 Mar 2008, 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually, "notions" is the word I would have capitalized, because that's where your answer deviates most from my question. We're not discussing notions of evil, we're discussing evil itself. Specifically: Does it exist, regardless of whether people sometimes misinterpret it? The Earth exists whether people think it does or not, and the same goes for anything else that exists. So, if evil exists, it exists absolutely. If it doesn't, than it absolutely doesn't. I'm not asking if evil exists in our imaginations; I'm asking if it's as real as the air we breathe.

Well, I disagreed with the validity of your definition. If evil consisted of willed actions that the actor knew were wrong, then you and I both agree that Hitler was not evil. Not only that, but really, haven't you assumed evil to prove it? I mean, Hitler cannot be considered evil without both the existence of evil, and some way of determining what comprises morality.

Well, Hitler was also insane, don't forget, so that factors quite a bit into a discussion of his level of personal, conscious evil.
Only God knows, and I will be fine with whatever God has decided to do with Hitler in the afterlife.



Yes, I gave an example of an actual evil act. Again, none of us knows whether some part of Hitler knew he was doing evil (which seems likely he knew the Holocaust was evil on some conscious level). But yes, I've stated for the record that I believe evil is real, and so naturally I will give examples as to what I mean.

I'm not sure I believe in insanity.


Why would it seem to him that the holocaust was evil? It was something he wanted to do for years, and he did consider the Jews to be part of evil conspiracies. I did not deny that you believed in evil, however, an example of evil is hardly proof of it as evil refers to a strange and ultimately unknowable moral plane.

Because that's what occurs to most people when they hear innocent people screaming and dying: "This is wrong."


Well, again, you're going inside Hitler's head, and, as with trying to read anyone's thoughts, that leads to a world of conjecture. No one knows what Hitler's true thoughts were, although we can of course surmise somewhat from his actions and statements. But such conjecture should not be confused with actual knowlege.





(Permit me an eyeroll to pedantry.)

I agree with Ragtime. How do we know Hitler's actual purposes were? It's all to easy to make something look like something else.

im shure theres some real evil out there somewhere. i dont really care though

(note, this is arguing from the Nazi/Hitlerian perspective) But the Jews were clearly evil, they were part of a conspiracy to destroy the Arian race. I mean, would you call conspirators to destroy the master race and control Europe to be good? I don't think most would.


Well, Hitler is not a figure that makes this that hard. He held to his views and argued them for a long time, and anti-semitic feelings were prevalent across Europe. Really though, can we claim to have any knowledge about Hitler's evil without knowing his motives?

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 28 Mar 2008, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I was going to say eariler that your disbelief in insanity seems ironic, but now is a better occasion.



Again, God will handle the hardest questions about Hitler's inner workings, and He will do so perfectly. The reason God says "Vengeance is mine; I will repay" (Romans 12:19) is because He repays perfectly, whereas we usually mess it up when we try.
It is neither necessary nor possible for us to prove absolute knowledge of a fully evil intent within the insane mind of Adolf Hitler. (The insane brain has no valid map yet. That's why courts consider all insane people innocent -- even though I think that's going a bit far. At least there is that "criminally insane" catagory, which probably better fits Hitler than simply "insane".)
Hitler was evil in all ways we can possibly know, and therefore we were right to stop him, because it's wrong to attempt genocide based on no threat whatsoever from the targetted people.

So, Hitler can't claim he killed in self-defense when God confronts him, because the Jews were an intergrated part of the German people, and the Fatherland was never the same without those 6 million people's continuing contributions of great skill and devotion. Those Jews loved Germany as much as any other German citizen, but were targetted simply out of mad paranoia that a brilliant orator created and continued to stir up within that insignificant political mob known as Nazis. The Jews were no drain on Germany -- they were just the opposite: an economic stimulus package, to say the least, not to mention a humanitarian bulwark, as they are everywhere they go.

Ah, yeah, I really should not have put that in my own voice as those weren't my beliefs but the beliefs of Hitler and those who followed him. I did go correct that.

We didn't stop Hitler because he was wrong, but rather because we did not like Hitler and his allies. I mean, the US had its share of antisemitism too. Not only that, but also any group can potentially pose a threat. What if the Jews were all super-illuminati?

Perhaps those Jews did love Germany as much as any other citizen, but that is going into their minds and into the realm of speculation.

Existential evil topic

Evil does not exist in a vacuum. We need a baseline for it. I wish this baseline was universally accepted by all humans, but unfortunately no. Experience and history have taught most of us what evil is, and yes, it is subjective. Evil is manifested in an action, behaviour. I certainly know what evil is, and how I would define it:

Intentional harmful interference of a sentient being's enjoyment of life by the infliction of pain and suffering, whether directly or indirectly, and leading to maiming or death.