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The Blind Watchmaker

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Ragtime
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08 May 2008, 1:08 pm

frankcritic wrote:
Well, I've not read the book itself, but I've listened to or read dozens of interviews where Dawkins explains the core ideas of it, so I feel I can comment on them, especially now that I've disclosed not having read it.

I have read The God Delusion, however, where Dawkins is at his most brutal when criticizing religion, so I feel I can comment on whether it would be okay in society to do that.

-Frank


Well, I don't think whether it should be done in polite society is anything more than a side point here.
I know you're referring to the feeling Sedaka expressed, but to me, honest explanation of one's views
is always good. Dawkins does cross another line, however, when he becomes needlessly vituperative and insulting.
In a way, it's his selling point -- the gruff-but-accurate-expert type, sort of like House.

But it makes just as strong a statement to say, "You know what? Nothing against religious people, or against
God if He exists, but I personally don't believe He does."
That's respectful, plus it is as clear as Dawkins' emotion-weighty denunciations on the issue.

Ben Stein is nicer.

All that said, honesty does matter more to me than niceness, and with Dawkins, I always get the
feeling he's selling me something. With Stein, in his movie "Expelled", I felt like he laid out all his
cards right at the beginning. He said he doesn't know the answer. (Which is true for us all, when you
get right down to it. Even Dawkins.) Then, he goes and interviews
several leading experts from both sides of the argument.
I found that to be the more persuasive and reasoned approach.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 08 May 2008, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kalister1
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08 May 2008, 1:26 pm

Except Ben Stein does know the answer, "an all powerful, loving god".

Also, he is a slimy charlatan, who purposely misrepresents peoples views.



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08 May 2008, 1:42 pm

Ben Stein compares biologists to Nazis and claims that "Science makes you kill people." direct quote.

Funny, most of the people gathering large harems of children, blowing people up in marketplaces, etc. are self-proclaimed 'born-again messaihs' or 'prophets,' not biologists.

I don't find Dawkins abrasive at all. I think he's reasonable and polite. In The God Delusion, he states quite simply that he does not believe that religion gets some sort of free pass against being criticized, and that he will treat 'the god hypothesis' as he would treat any other hypothesis. People put religion on some sort of shelf and get all offended when it's criticized, and Dawkins simply does not believe that it deserves protected status.

I didn't particularly like The Blind Watchmaker, but I've enjoyed some of his other books.



Kalister1
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08 May 2008, 1:46 pm

How is the Ancestors Tale ? I've read The God Delusion and most of The Selfish Gene. How would you compare it to them?



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08 May 2008, 2:05 pm

i loved ancestors tale... tells you a lot about how evolutionary relations were unraveled. just a really neat anecdotal collection of short stories. easy read.


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08 May 2008, 2:51 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Dawkins does cross another line, however, when he becomes needlessly vituperative and insulting.


Oh, so the same way you are towards anyone with a different political view from you?



Ragtime
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08 May 2008, 3:59 pm

Kalister1 wrote:
Except Ben Stein does know the answer, "an all powerful, loving god".

Also, he is a slimy charlatan, who purposely misrepresents peoples views.


Oh geez, now you're maligning Stein?!

Any other truth-seekers you'd like to club while you're at it?

What's Mother Teresa done against you lately?

:roll:


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Kalister1
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08 May 2008, 4:01 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
Except Ben Stein does know the answer, "an all powerful, loving god".

Also, he is a slimy charlatan, who purposely misrepresents peoples views.


Oh geez, now you're maligning Stein?!

Any other truth-seekers you'd like to club while you're at it?

What's Mother Teresa done against you lately?

:roll:


You are the one who is anti-truth. Stop with the rhetoric.



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08 May 2008, 5:23 pm

Kalister1 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
Except Ben Stein does know the answer, "an all powerful, loving god".

Also, he is a slimy charlatan, who purposely misrepresents peoples views.


Oh geez, now you're maligning Stein?!

Any other truth-seekers you'd like to club while you're at it?

What's Mother Teresa done against you lately?

:roll:


You are the one who is anti-truth. Stop with the rhetoric.


I agree. And I wouldn't do anything to Mother Teresa.


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Sedaka
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08 May 2008, 5:28 pm

is that a WoW avatar there, QM? lol

edit: hmm, maybe not.... what game is it, though?


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Kalister1
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08 May 2008, 8:47 pm

Sedaka wrote:
is that a WoW avatar there, QM? lol

edit: hmm, maybe not.... what game is it, though?


I think its EQ.



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09 May 2008, 5:32 pm

frankcritic wrote:
You couldn't in the sense that it would be socially acceptable. Being outspoken will always cost you that way, but in regards to religion it will cost you dearly. Christians in America will spread rumors about you and make it difficult, if not impossible, to find employment, or least they will in the Bible Belt where I reside and am trying to get the heck out of. Muslims in the Middle East will kill you or call for all Muslims everywhere to do so and if you think I'm stereotyping you might want to ask Salmon Rushdie or, more recently, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who maintains 24 hour tight top notch security and probably will have to for the rest of her life, all on private donations by the way.

-Frank

Criticism of religion is currently socially unacceptable, but criticism of science is not. Dawkins is like the atheist Rosa Parks who refuses to sit in the back of the bus.



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09 May 2008, 5:49 pm

Kalister1 wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
is that a WoW avatar there, QM? lol

edit: hmm, maybe not.... what game is it, though?


I think its EQ.


Final Fantasy XI. It's a GM, or Game Master (moderator) called Dave.

For more info, please visit:

http://bannable-offenses.blogspot.com/


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Ragtime
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09 May 2008, 5:53 pm

AspE wrote:
Dawkins is like the atheist Rosa Parks who refuses to sit in the back of the bus.


:lmao:














I'm sorry...












:lmao:



Kalister1
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09 May 2008, 5:59 pm

Ragtime wrote:
AspE wrote:
Dawkins is like the atheist Rosa Parks who refuses to sit in the back of the bus.


:lmao:














I'm sorry...












:lmao:


The flippancy of the theologian, ladies and gentleman. I dare no speak about the illogical aspects of Christianity, for fear of my grades in classes. Dawkins has much more to lose then I do, and its really quite astonishing he would be so outspoken.



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09 May 2008, 6:19 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
Except Ben Stein does know the answer, "an all powerful, loving god".

Also, he is a slimy charlatan, who purposely misrepresents peoples views.


Oh geez, now you're maligning Stein?!

Any other truth-seekers you'd like to club while you're at it?

What's Mother Teresa done against you lately?

:roll:

Ben Stein is both a moron and a bigot, as well as an apologist for corruption on the right. He glorifies Nixon, and still supports Bush. He tries to downplay every incidence of scandal from the Republicans (such as Foley) while maintaining a constant holier-than-thou attitude and claiming that all scientists are genocidal Nazis who want to kill everyone. Comparing him to Mother Theresa is an insult.


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