Americans have no right to vote for a President

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you're welcome to move here and become a citizen and vote if you want. there's plenty good jobs depending on where you move to and you'd be able to directly affect the elections by voting.

other than that, i don't even want my government giving up sovereignty enough to make the north american union rather less putting our vote in other peoples' hands.

I dont see other countries trying to emulate the United States. Instead I see the vast majority distancing themselves from the United States and its impending implosion. Bush Co. has run America into the ground or at least stood by and allowed it to happen.

For too long the gap has continued to widen and the elites go largely unchecked. It is this greed (the bane of capitalism) which spurs the animosity between the two. When the tax cuts for the rich expire will these people remain behind or will they collect their offshore accounts and leave (like the jobs theyve sent) overseas? I think we know the answer to that. The only alternative is for them to sit with a shotgun and pick off the scavengers as they scale the walls of their gated communities. Vultures now circle the last piece of apple pie. The experiment gone wrong is nearing its conclusion.

As I see it the only help for America will be the intervention of other countries, and I hope they care enough to try. My argument is that they should be encouraged to take a greater role. America, albeit on a smaller scale, is the world or at least represents it. Therefore to a certain extent the world should be more engaged, more responsible. The dawn of globalization is upon us yet in many ways we are still as closed off as ever. The time has come for America to admit it is not the end all be all of western civilzation. Claiming so only continues to intesify the anger of other nations toward it and it will not succeed or even survive alone.

That was actually my point. The Holocaust saw 12,000,000 people rounded up, put in concentration camps, and killed, simply because of their backgrounds (and even, partial backgrounds, like having a great-grandparent who was Jewish). And not even by an outside enemy -- but by a German political party! And no German(s) ever shut it down. No, other countries had to take the trouble to go to war to stop Germany by force in the very midst of its committing these insane acts of both self-mutilation and the Nazis' causeless, power-mad attempt to conquer all of Europe. So, the Germans not only allowed it, but never shut it down themselves. We (the Allies) had to clean up the mess.

By contrast, only 3,000 victims were killed in America on September 11th. And although those 19 murderers were instantly killed (just as they wished to be) their attacks were a clear message that jihad is well-prepared to attack America again and again, and will every chance it gets. We responded to that threat -- not swiftly, but with long deliberation, and, in the end, very powerfully.

No, the events are not analogous, but it's interesting that it only took 3,000 innocent deaths to get us to say "STOP! This is wrong, and we will not tolerate it!"
We sent, and continue to send a clear message back: "Those who try this again will die. And this time it will be before, and not after, you kill us."

See, killing suicidal/homicidal Muslims is a pretty easy decision, because they're going to kill themselves anyway, in the same split-second they kill you! So, the question is not "Should I kill this sucidal/homicidal Muslim?" Rather, it's "Should I kill him, or let him kill himself and me by him blowing himself up next to me?"
And that's a pretty easy decision.

Last edited by Ragtime on 04 Apr 2008, 4:37 pm, edited 14 times in total.

you're better off ignoring ragtime. he's either a completely deluded moron or he's a troll. i can't really verify either from here.

I dont think Ragtime is either a moron or a troll.
On some levels I agree him but I think hes off topic here.
Maybe Im blind, but I fail to draw any distinct correlation
between the worlds obligation to freedom and democracy
and Nazi Germany.

That's rich. America will implode only if Jimmy Carters like you get voted into office.

Last edited by Ragtime on 04 Apr 2008, 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Werent the Germans against freedom and democracy?

[Ragtime closes eyes, puts back of hand to forehead] "Oh, woe is me! If only less successful countries would show me the way!"

Where do you live, anyway? What country, I mean.

Ahh, okay, Now I understand.

But I also tried to point out why 3000 were 'enough'. Because these people who were killed were still considered people by us Western people. The minorities back in Nazi Germany, including the Jews, were de-humanised.

A tiny little bit like disabled people are sometimes brushed off. Just the basic principle. 'You're not like us, you#re not equal.' Destroying empathy results in de-humanisation.

On 9/11 these people who were killed were seen as human victims, as people who had the lives of people. And of course, as innocent equals that suffered. That's why a direct action to stop the murder was wanted and supported.

That's not about being American. Or not being American. It's about being human.

From what I understand, the same basic principle is applied in a different way by fundamental Muslims. For them, everybody who is not like them in terms of belief is not on the same level.

I know the main principles - we study the US in politic under an open but critical views as a compulsory topic in school - of the US regarding defence, peace and liberty. Many of these things were spoken about only days after 9/11 (I remember the speech of Guiliani (did I spell that correctly?)). Ohh, it was an awesome although highly metaphorical speech that messed up by English grade a few weeks ago... meh... it was an autism-unfriendly environment for writing an exam...

If this principle is induced by parents into every child, induced into adults by the grandparents once, it certainly had an encouraging and supporting effect on that people wanted to protect and defend these basic human principles. That's the part where being American comes in, certainly.

That there was a reaction, that would have applied to every country. How this reaction turned out to be like, that was uniquely American. So yes, other countries - I am most sure! - would have done something different from what America decided to do. America brought in pride of its country and traditional and proud ideals/principles of freedom, liberty. But all other (independent, democratic and powerful) countries would have reacted somehow also given the circumstances of 9/11. Based on empathy and the emotional reaction.


Whether a war was the right or wrong choice - I believe in the landscape of politics, it's not only or not mainly about right as in 'justice' or wrong as in 'injustice'. I hardly comment on politics, it's hard to do with so many things to take into consideration.

No, they are not. Just making sure you know.

Nazis 60 years ago were pretty much against any form of liberty, against freedom of speech, democracy, human rights, everything. They said they would support it. Hence calling themselves 'national socialists'. But they only said it to deceive, take other the country, get fans, murder everybody who they wanted to murder as undisturbed as possible.

Snake, your facts are disordered. The President at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack was Franklin D. Roosevelt. Eisenhower (not Einsenhower) was an Army general during WWII, and was not elected to the Presidency until after Truman's first full term.

Further, while there is considerable speculation that Roosevelt knew the attack on Pearl was going to happen, there is not a shred of evidence in favor of this proposition. On the other hand, there is some evidence that a communique intended to inform Roosevelt that the Japanese were about to attack was received at the State Department, but that its translation from Japanese was not regarded as a high priority at the time - thus, the President did not receive the communique until the day after the attack.

Ragtime, your proposition is interesting, leaving just one question - until the suicidal attacker attacks, how do you pick him out from the sane citizens surrounding him? That's the only reason suicide attacks succeed, you know - if they all went around wearing T-shirts that said, "I am a suicide bomber in training", they would never make it as far as an actual attack. And no, no matter what you hear on right-wing talk radio, not every Muslim is an America-hating bomb-wearing martyr to Allah. In fact, the majority of Muslims regard the extremists as being an embarrassment to Islam, and no more representative of them than Timothy McVeigh was of Christianity.

This administration is attempting to use 9/11 as an excuse to do the same things to our freedoms as happened in fascistic dictatorships before, but so far at least we've always hit a certain point and then said, "OK, that's enough now."

There you go again with the one-act arrogant american show.

Quick to stereotype arent we?
sad..

I am an American
but more importantly I am citizen of the world

"I am he as you are he as you are me
and we are all together"

-L/M

goo goo ga joob baby

I read somewhere that the the Brits
were aware of the Japs plans to attack Pearl.

could be wrong
wouldnt be the first time.

Not at all. You knew where I'm from, and that no doubt influenced how you communicated with me. Your thoughts just got me really curious, because you don't seem to know much about world politics.

When met with resistance, instead pursuing some form of understanding, you switched to hollow points. How very American of you.

It doesnt matter where either of us is from. If you think your "birth right" affords you the luxury of supporting oppressive nationalism disguised as American patriotism, you are misguided.

It is time the states, and those subscribing to your particular mindset, come to grips with the fact that America is nothing more than a single spoiled member of the world community.

How typical of the US to propose the League of Nations and then fail to support it claiming to be above it.