Was the God of the Old Testament cruel?

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True, but I guess I'm going by the topic. "Was the God of the Old Testament cruel?"

I didn't bother reading anything else.





Yes.

Ok, much clearer and I can clarify my position as well.

The Word is. As you stated "events and words have been recorded"; True. BUT, I do not hold onto the philosophy of there being a final word, or message.

To claim that "This is all you need" runs contrary to what I believe to be true. This is why I do not believe that one sole group of people are chosen. If that was the case then we'd all be of that people, or we would have perished.

When I said "it is blasphemous" that was because it comes across as if the "owners" of the book are in control of who He reveals himself to. That is not the case. He has revealed Himself to all.

Generally speaking, humans have a general definition of cruelty (not saying morality is universal); rape and murder is considered to be wrong by most cultures for example. Mass murder is also generally considered to be wrong/cruel (not that I am saying the God of the old testament is a mass murderer).

Edit: If I were an Egyptian and my first born was killed by God just to get the Pharoh to free some slaves, I think I might view God as being somewhat cruel (assuming I had nothing to do w/ the Jews). Alternatively, if my best friend was in Sodom when it got nuked (and he did not partake in the immortality of the city).

Last edited by Sargon on 08 May 2008, 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm assuming the standard that shows cruel as anything a tyrant would do?

I'm afraid of God being angry at me. I never understand when I hear people talk about a loving God. I've always seen God as a giant, powerful authoritarian whose rules you must follow to a T if you don't want to suffer for all eternity. Problem is, so many people have so many different ideas of what God wants that I don't know what to believe, and that gets me confused, sad, and scared much of the time.

Well, the issue is that verses in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 shows God as directly cruel.
The book of Job shows God as allowing cruelty.
Psalm 137:8-9 shows God encouraging cruelty.
Exodus in verses 4:21, 7:3, 14:4, and 14:17 speak about God intentionally making Pharaoh's rebellion worse so as to make an example of him and to give him an excuse to kill bunches of egyptions.

Now, frankly, the issue is one, that creating many creatures who will suffer fates worse than non-existence seems cruel and two, that cruelty is subjective, so the entire thing falls down to perceptions of cruelty and whether or not God really falls in line with our given ethical principles. Frankly though, it is hard to say that the god of the OT is not cruel by our standards, and heck, I avoided the issues of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities where every living thing, including animals, were killed at God's command.

Frankly, here is the worst cruelty though: Lev 11:7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. NO BACON!! !!

The problem I find with the "cruelty" description is that we have been repeatedly told that He is "Benevolent." It has been repeated over and over and over again. Yet, when one talks about Him being "cruel" we say "It is His will" and that "We don't understand His ways."

I agree with the last two quotes, but I won't outright say "He is Benevolent" because that isn't always the perceivable case. What I would say is that There is nothing that can be said of Him which describes Him fully. To do so would be invention, attributes which to me are equally as blasphemous as anything else. He just Is. I don't even bother thinking much about it because it gets nowhere. He just Is. There is no science to it.

The part of hardening Pharaoh's heart makes sense. He commands all. That is Omniscience and Omnipotence.

If He knows all, then you have nothing to worry about. Your fate is sealed, whether good or bad.

Why would He want to make me just to be a screw-up? I don't want to be a screw-up. Why would God make me to be irredeemable? I don't remember choosing to be born - I might not have if I was just going to Hell anyway.

Last edited by DejaQ on 08 May 2008, 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What makes you think He wants anything from you? And if He does what is it?

If you know what He wants, why do you not follow? Why such transgression?

If you follow what is True, why are you filled with worries?



I'm past fears.

Oh, I know that, however, Ragtime asked if he seemed cruel. Now, obviously if God exists and He says that He isn't cruel then He isn't as He cannot be wrong. However, to even ask the question if the God of the old testament seems cruel is to presuppose that the God of the OT isn't God to the audience asked. Frankly though, even bible scholars can have issues with the OT God, such as pastor/theologian Greg Boyd who sees a disconnect between him and NT God based upon his actions and questions the beauty of the scripture upon the sight of baby skull crushing. Greg Boyd might not be the best theologian to look at given his neo-orthodox bent and the fact that he is an open theist, but still, the idea that OT God is questionable to some is not questionable.


Well, right, and some groups say that theodicy is not necessary because He cannot be understood. Really though, there is a disconnect between trying to prove Him right and claiming a lack of knowledge on Him.

Heck, I think that the best theology is Calvinism as other theologies don't get around logical fatalism despite pinning their hopes on trying to and Calvinism deals with total depravity and then plows right through logical fatalism through fore-ordinance.

You said He has a plan...he must want something from me, or I wouldn't exist.

I don't know what he wants. I don't know what's true.

I don't trust religious texts. I don't know who's touched them! People can be greedy and manipulative. And through translation, meanings are altered. How do I know what's in The Bible now is the same as what was in it thousands of years ago? What if people changed it to say the exact opposite of what God wanted? Not to mention there are so many different versions of faith - as a result, everyone preaches different things. I could choose the path that sounds right to me - but what if it's ultimately the wrong path? What if I live my life in a way that causes God to hate me?

Well, the God of the OT did kill tons of people. He claims he was justified though. Is that murder?

Well, if you were hurt by God then you would think so. Frankly, I would say that the Sodom issue is likely incorrect as found in Exodus: Gen 18:32 Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it."

So, if 10 who were justified in God's eyes were found, then God would not destroy Sodom, not only that, but God took the time to save Lot and his family who were there who constituted 4 people. Frankly, I doubt your best friend would be there for fun given the biblical account of the city as so depraved that men came to Lot trying to rape his 2 guests.

Hard to say what He would want though, some people say that he creates vessels of wrath and others say that he desires all men to be saved.

Well, definitely true. I would say that it would be unlikely for it to be opposite of what God would want simply because of scholarly efforts to find the true Bible(not arguing that this means it would be inerrant, just that complete opposition is rather hard to do the closer one gets to the source). Not only that, but if the God is assumed to have a plan, then why would his scriptures be so deeply violated? An all-powerful God with a plan would be assumed to have the power to allow for a reasonably correct scripture. And as for different variances in the faith, well, do your own research, but even if you fail, most people from most denominations accept that people of the other denominations can get saved. The "what if God hates you" question is rather pointless, as no matter what path you choose you still can risk that, the issue is whether you accept a God to hate you and whether you seek to please that God.

Yes, I am aware he asked if He seemed cruel. I cannot answer such a question. I wouldn't even ask such a question. There would be no point.

Why would the Bible change in a thousand years? It has remained true. Beware of certain "translations", however. If a certain passage sounds a bit strange, search for its meaning. Don't remain in a state of ignorance. Ask, and ask again.

If you're Christian, be Christian. What makes you think the Word is any different in other faiths? It all returns to the same thing. It all says the same thing. What was it that Moses said? What was it that Muhammad said? They are repeating each other.

Well, Ragtime does a bunch of things that I consider stupid or pointless anyway, so I am not shocked or surprised or anything like that.