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Should America leave Iraq?

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Should they leave?
Yes 63%  63%  [ 15 ]
No 17%  17%  [ 4 ]
Not sure 21%  21%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 24

oscuria
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10 May 2008, 7:57 pm

peebo wrote:
the head banging against the wall? or your previous post about things getting out of hand? you make little sense.


That was on you claiming 'al-qaeda' doesn't exist.



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10 May 2008, 8:03 pm

oscuria wrote:
Because al-Qaedas presence only promotes peace?

Al-Qaeda didn't have a significant presence in Iraq until our invasion and subsequent incompetent occupation created a power vacuum. Our presence continues to provide fodder for their recruitment efforts and to engender more antipathy towards the US. Probably not the most effective means of waging a "war on terror."


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10 May 2008, 8:23 pm

To clarify my above statement about the war on terror, "know thine enemy." We have to understand the motivation of terrorists. Why do they hate us? Don't try to pull some crap about them being "jealous of our liberty." That is about the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. There is a perception in the Middle East that we act as aggressors and try to boss around these smaller countries, as well as supporting Israel unconditionally without regard to the claims of Palestinians. They also have a host of other objections to the US, such as our actions in Iran in regards to the Shah. Whether any of these perceptions is accurate can be debated, but unless we overcome the negative view many Arab Muslims have of the US, we can't expect to be very successful in fighting terrorism.


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10 May 2008, 8:28 pm

Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.


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10 May 2008, 8:43 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.

And your proposal is...? South Vietnam went to the Commies when we left, but we weren't accomplishing anything there other than getting people killed. After the dust settled, Vietnam emerged [relatively] peaceful, and probably better off than if we had simply prolonged the conflict indefinitely. Not to say Vietnam became anything resembling a utopia, or that Iraq would, but there really isn't a good way for us to solve this problem. I think we need to cut our losses.


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10 May 2008, 8:45 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.


Since when has Iran tried in invade Iraq or even suggested that. :? I don't think they would considerate it from what happened with the Iraq Iran war.

Iran would never be stupid enough to invade Iraq, unlike some. :roll:


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10 May 2008, 9:14 pm

MR_BOGAN wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.


Since when has Iran tried in invade Iraq or even suggested that. :? I don't think they would considerate it from what happened with the Iraq Iran war.

Iran would never be stupid enough to invade Iraq, unlike some. :roll:


Really some of insurgents are from Iran so they interested in Iraq now with it being powerless and unable to protect itself when we leave.


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10 May 2008, 9:16 pm

MR_BOGAN wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.


Since when has Iran tried in invade Iraq or even suggested that. :? I don't think they would considerate it from what happened with the Iraq Iran war.

Iran would never be stupid enough to invade Iraq, unlike some. :roll:


Invade with influence. Just like it "invaded" Lebanon.



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10 May 2008, 9:25 pm

Orwell wrote:
oscuria wrote:
Because al-Qaedas presence only promotes peace?

Al-Qaeda didn't have a significant presence in Iraq until our invasion and subsequent incompetent occupation created a power vacuum. Our presence continues to provide fodder for their recruitment efforts and to engender more antipathy towards the US. Probably not the most effective means of waging a "war on terror."


No matter what, no one will like the US. There are those brave Iraqis who will publicly show their support by exclaiming that the "liberation" was the best day of their life. Sadly, they have been targets of the militias.



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10 May 2008, 9:25 pm

oscuria wrote:
MR_BOGAN wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.


Since when has Iran tried in invade Iraq or even suggested that. :? I don't think they would considerate it from what happened with the Iraq Iran war.

Iran would never be stupid enough to invade Iraq, unlike some. :roll:


Invade with influence. Just like it "invaded" Lebanon.


Yep the Iranians are there as well which back the idea of Iran trying to rebuild the Persian Empire aka a Modern Persian Empire.


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10 May 2008, 9:33 pm

oscuria wrote:
No matter what, no one will like the US. There are those brave Iraqis who will publicly show their support by exclaiming that the "liberation" was the best day of their life. Sadly, they have been targets of the militias.

Um... America was once the most respected and admired country in the world. Our [perceived] imperialistic tendencies have generated animosity towards us. And our presence in Iraq has helped al-Qaedas' recruiting efforts, as even our own intelligence reports acknowledged a few years ago. If we want to be liked in the world (which is the best chance we have of staving off terrorism, as well as being seen as justified when we do respond to terrorism) we need to change the perception worldwide that we are imperialistic or overly aggressive.


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10 May 2008, 9:36 pm

Orwell wrote:
oscuria wrote:
No matter what, no one will like the US. There are those brave Iraqis who will publicly show their support by exclaiming that the "liberation" was the best day of their life. Sadly, they have been targets of the militias.

Um... America was once the most respected and admired country in the world. Our [perceived] imperialistic tendencies have generated animosity towards us. And our presence in Iraq has helped al-Qaedas' recruiting efforts, as even our own intelligence reports acknowledged a few years ago. If we want to be liked in the world (which is the best chance we have of staving off terrorism, as well as being seen as justified when we do respond to terrorism) we need to change the perception worldwide that we are imperialistic or overly aggressive.


Admired and respected except in the Muslim countries. Remember, the US is a strong supporter and ally to Israel. They will see any of our involvements in their land with Zionist or Crusades intentions.



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10 May 2008, 9:45 pm

oscuria wrote:
Admired and respected except in the Muslim countries. Remember, the US is a strong supporter and ally to Israel. They will see any of our involvements in their land with Zionist or Crusades intentions.

I mentioned that in a previous post. It is thought that America supports Israel unconditionally, while ignoring the rights of Palestinians. By either removing ourselves form an issue that doesn't concern us or seeking to be more balanced in how we treat groups with competing claims to that land, we can reverse some of that hatred. The goal of Zionism was to find a safe haven for Jews. Well, today Europe is safer for Jews than the middle east. Why aren't the Zionists setting up communities in France? Basically, Israel has been forced to become a militaristic state because of the pressures of trying to survive while surrounded by people who want to destroy them. That wasn't the purpose of Zionism, it was to get away from the people who wanted to kill Jews. And yet Israel, the culmination of the Zionist movement, is in the one place in the world where Jews are least welcome.


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10 May 2008, 9:50 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
oscuria wrote:
MR_BOGAN wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Withdraw=Iran taking over and becoming Super Iran.

South Vietnam all over again. Plus we are there which gives Iran not a reason to invade when they know that we can easily defeat them with their Soviet equipment against modern war equipment.


Since when has Iran tried in invade Iraq or even suggested that. :? I don't think they would considerate it from what happened with the Iraq Iran war.

Iran would never be stupid enough to invade Iraq, unlike some. :roll:


Invade with influence. Just like it "invaded" Lebanon.


Yep the Iranians are there as well which back the idea of Iran trying to rebuild the Persian Empire aka a Modern Persian Empire.


I can't really comment, I'll have to do some research. I don't think it is wise to listen to what you hear in the media, it is best to research things before you form an opinion.

I really can't see Iran invading Iraq though. Nothing to gain apart from trouble.


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11 May 2008, 2:05 am

Orwell wrote:
I mentioned that in a previous post. It is thought that America supports Israel unconditionally, while ignoring the rights of Palestinians. By either removing ourselves form an issue that doesn't concern us or seeking to be more balanced in how we treat groups with competing claims to that land, we can reverse some of that hatred. The goal of Zionism was to find a safe haven for Jews. Well, today Europe is safer for Jews than the middle east. Why aren't the Zionists setting up communities in France? Basically, Israel has been forced to become a militaristic state because of the pressures of trying to survive while surrounded by people who want to destroy them. That wasn't the purpose of Zionism, it was to get away from the people who wanted to kill Jews. And yet Israel, the culmination of the Zionist movement, is in the one place in the world where Jews are least welcome.


No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes.

America should support Israel unconditionally. What else would it have? Israel should be an example of a progressive country in the middle east. Instead it has been forced into being perceived as an evil dictator who performs genocidal acts against arabs. I can't imagine a Palestinian nation in what is now Israel. It would be even more disastrous. There are people in both sides who are content with the current situation, the palestinians just have it the hardest. But they force themselves time and time again into that situation.









MR_BOGAN wrote:
I can't really comment, I'll have to do some research. I don't think it is wise to listen to what you hear in the media, it is best to research things before you form an opinion.

I really can't see Iran invading Iraq though. Nothing to gain apart from trouble.


Iraqis care more about their country than any religious ties. It didn't matter that Shi'a fought Shi'a in the Iraq-Iran war, all that mattered was that Iran was attacking Iraqis, thus were enemies. If Iran invaded Iraq, as-Sadr militia would have to break ties or face attacks from its own people I would think. Oh, I forgot to mention that al-sadr is a nationalistic Iraqi, or so I heard. If that is the case, I don't think he'd support an Iranian invasion.



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11 May 2008, 3:27 am

Orwell wrote:
MR_BOGAN wrote:
I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war.

Whether or not we "owe" it to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country is beyond our capabilities. Our presence continues to provoke more violence, which will not stop until we are gone.

You Yanks made the mess, you've a responsibility to stay there until it's sorted out. If you go, and wash your hands of it, the different factions will just accelerate the rate at which they're currently killing each other. Morally, that's not really acceptable. However, as morals usually figure fairly low on US priorities, then economically you've an incentive as far as oil supply goes. With current demand and the state of your economy, writing-off oil reserves as large as Iraq's to a future lawless war-stricken pit comparable to some of the current African states, is not something to be taken lightly.

You'll be in Iraq for a long time yet. In fact it's in the interest of most of the rest of the world that you are, I think. Not that you'll get much thanks.