Thou art God.

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oscuria
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21 May 2008, 7:35 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

Why do you presume such a statement would lead to Satanism? Various Christian faiths teach that the body is sacred, a creation of a divine being and therefore sacrosanct - therefore, the concept of inclusion does not automatically make such a tenet tantamount to Satanism. Other faiths do not always exclude a focus on primacy of self. Similarly, you presume an adverse reaction to such a belief structure... in, as what might be described as a system of philosophic Taoism, there is an attempt made by myself to make no such judgment as to the systems of others, their own tao or way. Whose interpretation of the quote is the correct understanding? My own is merely that - my own, and my curiosity lies in how it makes others react. To me, the quote shows the inherent divinity within all things - not postulates of a godhead created as a coping mechanism for things beyond initial comprehension. I have no knowledge of a divine being; that man would choose to label such a being, to limit it with the trappings of limited experience, is a shallow and sad thought to me. If such a thing exists, such existence lies beyond our own scope... to me, it makes more sense to honour it intact in it's potential than to find deception in a fractured facet. So, please explain more about these flawed interpretations, and the dangers you believe contained therein.

Well, Christianity doesn't ever tell its followers to claim to Be. Because the body is Holy does not mean You are Him. It is not the same. The body is Holy means to take care of the Body and not let it become defiled. You still must render service to the Divine.

I don't know your view, but I feel saying "Thou Art God" alone is not correct. It can speak to anyone, leaving no explanation will result a person to interpret it their own ways. Such ambiguity can lead to Satanism which puts the Ego before all. If you are Him, how come you are not in full control of Self? You are impotent as you are not in control--you are still susceptible to the ways of the world. "Thou Art Not" would be my response.

"Thou Art God" is contrastingly much different than saying "That Thou Art" which is much more vocal, much more Spiritual, and much more Divine. You acknowledge that there is No Other. "la ilaha illa allah" also speaks louder than anything in the world.

"He and I are One. He is I, I am not He."

spudnik wrote:

Oscuria your being an annoying little puke, you don't have views, you just rant and don't seem to make sense. I have seen your other threads and you come off as a troll who really should be keeping his mouth shut, because your so off topic on this thread. If you have anything worth saying, it will be after you have read the book we were talking about, until then, disappear!

I am sure being an arrogant antagonist is any better? I should learn from you then. Teach me your ways.

Lesson one: Insult the adversary. Thanks!

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Odin
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21 May 2008, 8:29 pm

IIRC Pantheists like Spinoza and Einstein would say everything is part of God and that "The Cosmos" and "God" are synonyms.

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spudnik
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21 May 2008, 8:35 pm

arrogant antagonist ? I think you have that backwards

makuranososhi
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21 May 2008, 8:37 pm

Perhaps the larger sects within Christianity; I would not presume to say that none do, given the various literal interpretations and cults that have arisen. More appropriate would be to say that in your particular strain of Christianity, this is the case. Broader assertions of fact based only your personal beliefs do not give your arguments or beliefs greater credence. For example, I do not share your beliefs; to tell me that I "must render service to the Divine" is presumptuous and does not convince me of anything. In my own beliefs, this quote has substantial value... both as I said before, and in that it reminds us to value ourselves, that each person and object in life is part and parcel of something greater, deserving of respect and attention. Religion takes that aspect of individual importance and insignificance away, leverages truth for effect. Such a greater whole does not need to be a bearded savior, the burning bush, or even the good spaceship salvation coming to take us away... it merely is, and to try to quantify it seems to only insult and trivialize. I do not attempt to carve a face into the marble, but appreciate that it exists; I do not limit that which is to one - there may be many. Heinlein's "Book of Job" has an amazing take on mythological strata that you might find interesting... more than likely, you will find it offensive if you consider statements that invite interpretation to be pathways to 'Satanism' or other non-traditional thoughtways. In all things, I find myself in such a role of roguish advocacy - though which devil one must choose for themselves - asking questions and provoking answers...

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
-The Beatles

M.

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oscuria
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21 May 2008, 9:44 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

I'm not Christian so unless you meant "your particular strain" as being a general term, it does not apply. I just find that many today have taken mysticism and adopted into something that it isn't. These people feel they have discovered something new only to find out that it has always been known.

"Tat Tvam Asi" can only be reached by "Netti Netti." There is no "Thou Art God" unless one knows what He is.

yathakasa-sthito nityam
vayuh sarvatra-go mahan
tatha sarvani bhutani
mat-sthanity upadharaya

How can one Be without first understanding that Being? Such is selfish talk.

"I was here in The Beginning, I am, and have forever been. But You were Always before Me"

There is nothing presumptuous. Quite the contrary. I know it's a quote from a science fiction book, but still.

spudnik wrote:

arrogant antagonist ? I think you have that backwards

You're just easily offended and decided to attack. There is nothing backwards about it.

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makuranososhi
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21 May 2008, 10:02 pm

It was meant in the general sense; my apologies for not being more clear. I would enjoy hearing more of your belief base-set, as it is a curious extrapolation from what little I've seen thus far. That you know the source is good... the story, the parable, has been a method of sharing concepts and systems for centuries. Your quote is quite apt and appreciated; it dovetails well with the quote that started this entire conversation. All defines itself in different ways; each state, it's own Being. All pursuits are selfish, only to a matter of degree and self awareness. This is taking an interesting turn... look forward to your response.

M.

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21 May 2008, 10:16 pm

You know its a great science fiction book, and one of my favorite books, don't go spoiling it for people because your on a god and devil rant, I don't believe in either, but I try respect religious people and their views, your a miserable piece of work, who lives to be confrontational, and if people say anything you deem unacceptable, your back at it with name calling, or put downs, why can't you knock it off and let people try and enjoy themselves here

makuranososhi
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21 May 2008, 10:35 pm

While I don't agree with things that have been said, or in some cases how they have been said, in various conversations on this site... I welcome anyone in this conversation who will discuss, detail, substantiate, argue and re-examine their beliefs and the ideas of others in a meaningful and civil manner. If the two of you need to continue to berate each other, please do so - but in a private forum where your vehemence can be unleashed, instead of this annoying, disruptive continuum that exists between the topics herein. Just a request, thank you.

M.

oscuria
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21 May 2008, 10:35 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

A statement like "Thou Art God" to me is a selfish pursuit. "That Thou Art" is a pursuit towards the Self.

Just to clarify, when I mentioned Satanism I had Anton Lavey's Satanism in mind. It is purely egoistical and selfish belief. It places in the mind a false ideal, a belief that you are what you are not, and it is why I said it is incorrect to say "Thou Art God" unless one truly understands the meaning behind such words. It really isn't a new concept, yet one that I feel very misunderstood.

Again, my criticism was against the quote and not the book in mention, something my negative friend can't seem to let go.

spudnik wrote:

I never mentioned the devil in this discussion, and "God" was the third word that began this thread. You are hurt, and felt the need to lash out. It is ok. I understand you have no control over your emotions. I am not insulting you, I am only observing.

When a thread asks for a response, should they all be "I agree." "I agree with what has been agreed" "I too agree with the one who agreed with the agreeable" "I acknowledge that we are all in agreement with this concept." AMIN.

?

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oscuria
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21 May 2008, 10:37 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

Fine by me.

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makuranososhi
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21 May 2008, 10:41 pm

It is a difference in perspective; I find it to be inclusive rather than selfish, that we are active participants in a greater whole, an exceptional world. To take the approach of external worship, at the whims of an objectified deity... does not make sense to me. All things have extremes, and LaVey's system is one such example - priority of self and desire above all else. The quote does not embody those qualities for me. The greater shame to me is in being part of such an incredible existence and to take no responsibility or awareness for one's role or place within it. Yet again, the quote provokes a reaction... no surprise there. It is something that snags at the consciousness of many, for an even greater number of reasons.

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22 May 2008, 12:18 am

oscuria wrote:

Ok? And what isn't a selfish pursuit? What person does not pursue their own cause? What ideal can be false, and how can we say for certain what a being is or is not?

oscuria
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22 May 2008, 1:21 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Ok? And what isn't a selfish pursuit? What person does not pursue their own cause? What ideal can be false, and how can we say for certain what a being is or is not?

I wont speak much on/of my beliefs, but I can try to answer to keep the flow of this thread going:

A selfish pursuit is a pursuit without Him in mind. The Bhagavat explained that all paths which are made to find Him, to render service unto Him, to live for Him, are not selfish; that to place the Self higher than all is the Path--for the Self and The Universal are One; that all desires and works are for Him alone.

Being, of course my understanding of it: We are Beings. That which does not exist is Beingless. He does not exist as the word is to be understood. He Is and I am, but I in my state am certainly not Him as I am no more in control of myself than an ant is in control of his surroundings. That is why I render services unto Him and He blesses me with this, for I exist. I cannot complain on that which I've been given.

It is how I understand Jesus' words, and to the extent that they resonate within me. It is nothing revolutionary except for the area and people to which he spoke. Who can not find Truth or who can disagree when he said that he and the Father are One? I have come to known the Father.

Makuranososhi is correct that it is a difference in perspective: "As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects."

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skafather84
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22 May 2008, 1:21 am

oscuria wrote:

Just to clarify, when I mentioned Satanism I had Anton Lavey's Satanism in mind. It is purely egoistical and selfish belief. It places in the mind a false ideal, a belief that you are what you are not, and it is why I said it is incorrect to say "Thou Art God" unless one truly understands the meaning behind such words. It really isn't a new concept, yet one that I feel very misunderstood.

have you read the satanic bible?

oscuria
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22 May 2008, 1:28 am

skafather84 wrote:

have you read the satanic bible?

I read excerpts of it one summer, the next month I found out it wasn't for me.

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skafather84
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22 May 2008, 1:39 am

figures. your misconception of his use of the idea of "you are your own god" makes it obvious.

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