*"Christianity: CBT Cult"*

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And has anyone actually read the parable of the ten virgins recently, the story of the lamps and the oil?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_Virgins

The five "wise" virgins refuse to share their oil with the five who forgot to bring some because "then there might not be enough for us".

Yesss! just the attitude to please the conservatives. This is "right-wing heaven"!

I don't buy the cover-story anymore that this has anything to do with belief in god, or spirituality. Christianity was a cult, like scientology, co-opted/adopted by the state to help rule the country( ies).

Wherever these parables succeeded in changing people's beliefs about how to behave the result will have been greater docility in the face of abuse/exploitation or greater aggressivity on the part of the privileged/most self-righteous in pursuing a certain kind of efficiency/productivity because believe that it is acceptable behaviour.

Last edited by ouinon on 01 Jun 2008, 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

PS: Decided to edit "vomiting/disgusted" emotes before anyone else tells me to.

It hadn't occurred to me before that the "religious" elements, taken from all religions present in the area at the time, are little more than window dressing for the real business.

I don't believe Jesus existed, he is just a character based on older, gnostic and veda and greek myths, but there is no doubt that Saul, ( aka Paul), did. He had a classic fanatic's moment of illumination, perhaps/probably after exposure to mindfulness ideas of Buddhism etc, and began a cult/sect, which promoted the first ever CBT.

NB: Would just like to make it clear that I believe in god some of the time, and had what I think was a "gnostic-jesus" moment of grace 16 years ago.

I'm not anti-religious, yet. I am only really familiar with Christianity, and discover it to be deeply dodgy.

Why no posts though? Feedback, people, please!

Of course that is a CBT program the is exactly what I'm saying. It is not feasible for those that have no clue about CBT and are unwilling to read about it to do it alone. Maybe like how you view spiritually as individual and religion not the same could be said of CBT vs. CBT programs and specific techniques.

CBT doesn't have a prerequisite for a group or even a qualified psychologist. In fact people can become CBT therapists without even becoming a psychologist, and there is no reason to assume they would be better or worse. If you are deductive enough in that area, provided you haven't been largely misinformed you can go it alone. It is in areas that you lack insight that a CBT group might be a starting point. I think program vary in their propensity to be individualistic. Many do want you to come up with you own ideas. Yes of course they may stear you in a particular direction, that may or may not be on the money. We are never free from influence anyway. that is exactly the whole point with of learnt behaviour we are influenced by things and people, and can influence ourself.

Again I didn't say it is easy, but provided the behaviour is learned and does not have a nuero functional explanation such as a legion in the frontal lobe, it is possible to unlearn it. I'm just put in it on the scale of things. This is something I feel quite strongly about because I've had problems with bothe learn behaviour and neruofuntional problems. You just can't compare the two. Learn behaviors are the least of my problems. I have successfully used CBT on them, I'll do it again. I could give a s**t right now however. Some thing are more important. I never attended an actual CBT program. This might have been an advantage. My ex shrink was very cleaver. Although she had some training on CBT, (you are hard pressed to find any health professional that hasn't done a day or two course in CBT even some GPs that know f**k all about mental health matters, so that doesn't mean they get it.) she gave me a little booklet by Gillian Butler. That was the starting point. I read that then decided to get her book. The interesting thing about Gillian Butler is she isn't known for her programs and very few famous CBT practitioners aren't, and she doesn't use weird analogies such as the 'ants', etc . Her book makes it very clear that CBT needs to be personal otherwise you're going to end up solving someone else problem. Of course there are some example exercises, but there is no requirement to do them exactly like that. There is always emphasis on individuality. People do CBT without thinking. I didn't it before I heard of it, and I still do it to this day.

There seem to be a number of WP members recently that are complaining about CBT like Anna. I don't know who is telling/forcing them to do CBT. Those people probably don't understand CBT as CBT is only for things you consider a problem. Otherwise it is forced immersion/aversion therapy not CBT.

There think is this topic as two distinct themes and it would have probably have been better two make threads. it is slightly confusing at first what it is you are asking. I'm not arguing about he dodginess of religion. Personally I'm an atheist, but am tolerant of other peoples spirituality. Maybe I have changed on that. It is not that I view religion as a good thing, but for many people religion itself is a natural propensity, it seems. That is because the truth is scary, some people truly feel less alone believing there is a god. It don't make any difference with me, so it was hard to understand at first.

People are very susceptible to influence. Religion by definition is something that aims to strongly influence a persons life. Personally I could consider self influence to be healthier although far from perfect either.

I think what a lot of spiritual people don’t realise is that spirituality is also to do with the type of mind they have, and their propensity to have these sort of thoughts. I’m not making a moral argument for or against. Although like I said that some neuro scientists have studied meditation, and shown it can change the brains state. You don’t necessarily have to believe in any god to do the meditation.

Ah! I get you. You mean that unless have experience of both, have invested in both to some extent, the similarities between CBT and Christianity are simply not evident, because have not got that close-up to either.

I don't think two threads would have been a better idea though because it's exactly the many/significant similarities between the teachings of Christianity, not just any religion, and beliefs fundamental to CBT which seemed to me to warrant examination/exploration, and, hopefully, debate.

But so far no one with both religious belief and experience of CBT has posted. ( I think, unless Oscuria has done some CBT work?)

I believe that everything we think of as "self-influence" is actually the influence of our genes, ( through hormones etc) ; unconscious reactions built on earlier experience; diet, and other indirect environmental factors, acting on us. Even when we think we are choosing it is choice made by factors over which noone is in control outside the process itself.

Religion that suggests that people have this power wants to hide its own influence, disarm, by telling you that it is you with the power. While feeding you beliefs of its choosing.

PS. I don't mean the beliefs of Christianity about gay sex, or similar questions, ( which is a matter of church doctrine and obviously not personal), but the key belief that our thoughts are important, that we should pay attention to them, and make the effort to discard/suppress some of them, and that we can do that. And that this is good for us.

But actually a whole packet ( of beliefs) are included in the parables, as I was saying above, that seem to pass almost completely undetected, because disguised as being about our hypothetical relationship with god, whereas in fact what many of them teach/inculcate is beliefs about the "correct"/appropriate ( obedient, non-resentful, worshipful, etc) attitude to have in/towards power relationships in our society.

What to expect, and accept, from authority/those in power, etc. How to react to arbitrary decisions on the part of someone in power. Not to share, not to ask for help from others better prepared. etc.

Is the absence of posts because a lot of people have difficulty taking seriously the suggestion that Christianity began as a cult like Scientology? It seems too extreme a position to take about something which is/was after all the foundation pretty much for western civilisation?

Or because see no similarity worth talking about between it and CBT? Do not understand what the two have in common? Because are not religious, or have no experience of CBT? Perhaps my posts are not very clear.

Or because all religion is the same to them, delusion etc, and so Christianity is no different? There is no point examining in what way a particular religion is fundamentally dodgy, because are all rubbish?

Even when it is possible that the fundamentally pernicious beliefs of the said religion may be making a comeback not only amongst religious extremists, but also amongst more and more middle-of-the-road, agnostic/vaguely spiritually inclined people under the label CBT.

Or because think both things are good and need no analysis? And can't be bothered to argue about it ... nope, ...not on wp, ...that can't be the explanation.

All the usual rabid atheists have nothing to say. All the usual rabid Christians nothing either. It is most puzzling.

Presumably then, even today people in societies where Christianity is not the dominant religion should lack this conscious awareness of their inner worlds, but I don't think this holds. Self-reflection is not an exclusive property of Christianity, and really is just a part of humans' psychological development. People start developing their inner world of ideas, opinions, beliefs and consequently reflect on them in childhood.

I totally agree, which is why I specified "in the West" because the awareness of the existence of an inner life came, via Buddhist ( and other) missionaries, from the East, India and China, etc, and no doubt still applies in those countries. But until recently their treatment of/reaction to this inner life was significantly different, as I have said a couple of times now.

But I wouldn't be surprised if in the West this awareness of an inner mental life had more or less spread "with" Christianity, to the Americas, down into Africa, and then finally to Australia.

The way an african tribe, first "contacted" by the developed world a couple of decades ago, described a white man's difficulties telling a story was; "He has lost his homeland. So he is carrying his ancestors around with him in his head". The headman recognised something different, and undesirable/unfortunate even, about the mental state of the visitors.

I was wondering about the Muslim religion, above, because I thought it might be less interested in "thoughts" in the general scheme of things? I don't know enough about it to say.

I have heard this theory about the inner life being a relatively late development before, and I remain highly skeptical. I'm not sure what your anecdote indicates, but mutual misunderstanding does not imply lack of inner life. For example, an NT not understanding an aspie does not imply the aspie lacks an inner world. The philosophy of ancient Greeks implies an inner world and one as sophisticated as any contemporary one (if lacking in some of our scientific knowledge and technology).

That is not my theory. I am not suggesting that the inner life developed late, ( except as a potentially interesting side issue) but that awareness of it was late developing, especially in the West compared to the East.

Yes, I agree, but I don't believe that they were aware of it, not in the same way, not as a constant passage of thoughts in their own heads. ( or it may have seemed like ancestors or gods talking, and was "identified" with them in myths etc, projected ) .

In fact many people in many countries still don't experience this, ( the clear awareness of the unceasing stream of thoughts/comments/beliefs/judgements etc in their heads), until they go to a first CBT session, or meditate, ( when the experience can be quite shocking/astonishing, like discovering the thousands of lifeforms in a blob of water under a microscope) but at least its existence is ( relatively) common knowledge now.

maybe to an extent but that is sort of irrelevant on a conscious level. There is no such thing as absolute free will, but there is relative free will. (says zombie paul )

What I am trying to say is that CBT and christianity have the same attitude to our inner mental life, to the thoughts/beliefs passing through our heads all the time

To those who haven't done CBT, meditation, or some other kind of focussing to "notice" this stream of judgements and beliefs, I can only say that it is a revelation, to realise that all this activity is going on behind the scenes all the time.

CBT and Christianity both believe that these thoughts/beliefs can be changed/overturned/suppressed/discarded. They believe that it is important to do so. And that it is good for you psychologically.

Buddhism doesn't. It advocates mindfulness, awareness of the stream, but no action on it. It advocates that we just ignore it/pay it no attention.

CBT is the creation of a christian civilisation. A direct descendant of Christianity. It could not have arisen in the East because they believe that the thoughts are not worth attending to, that they are best ignored completely.

Which is something which takes work, which I haven't done, whereas I did get caught up/involved in forcing some of my thoughts up against the wall to be eliminated CBT style, with no longterm positive effects as far as I can tell.

I think that Christianity was originally the product of someone's infatuation with these thoughts, recently made visible to him, and an OCD mentality which wanted to purify their head of all the false beliefs, all "thought" crime/sin. And used the inspiring Jesus character from Gnostic/Greek mysteries etc to deliver the lessons/new beliefs to put in the place of the old.

Doesn't this make sense to anyone? Is it too whacky? Is it because very few have done CBT , or because many believe that Christianity is, "all the same", still sacred/precious in some way, that it could not have been a cult like Scientology and then adopted as a means of social control? ( despite the outpourings of hate against religion I read on here constantly)

AAaaaaaaaaarrrGGGGggggggghhhhhHHHHHHHHHH!

PS: It's true that it did take me 8 years to free myself of the CBT delusion. It's sticky.

Awareness of one's inner world usually quickly follows its development; moreover, how can you have it but not be aware of it?

It strikes me as absurd that people would attribute their own thoughts and ideas to the gods. Now, I have heard of divine inspiration before, but I think that phrase was always meant figuratively instead of literally (except perhaps by psychotic people). Plato compared the human faculty of reason to a speck of the divine within humanity, but he never said it was literally the words of the gods.

I didn't become aware of my own automatic inner mental activity until I was 33, at a CBT course. And there were another 50 odd in the hall experiencing it for the first time too.

It is easy not to be aware of inner mental activity, most people aren't aware of it. It takes training, or meditation, or other focussing processes for most people to actually notice it.

I think you must be talking about the apparently-"directed" thought which is on the surface, which you are routinely conscious of, rather than what lies behind; the unceasing commentaries, non-volitional, automatic mental activity which I am referring to.

In that sense more "absurd"/far fetched for people to think that they are in control of their thoughts than for people in the past to project their inner mental activity onto gods etc.

PS: I just found out that a recent variant/branch of CT/ Cognitive Therapy now exists, not standard CBT with all its western christian foundations involving removing certain designated "unhelpful" beliefs etc, but "Mindfulness-based Cognitive Therapy" in which are mostly taught how to focus on the now, and detect what are thinking at this automatic level, until this awareness is itself automatic, and ( all ) the thoughts/beliefs etc lose their strength simply because can see/hear them. Hmmmm!