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greenblue
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07 Aug 2008, 4:47 pm

slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if people had the ability to reason, religion wouldn't exist by this point.


Bigot!

Does reason = bigotry? ;)


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slowmutant
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07 Aug 2008, 4:57 pm

greenblue wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if people had the ability to reason, religion wouldn't exist by this point.


Bigot!

Does reason = bigotry? ;)


No, reason = reason. Bigotry = bigotry.

It doesn't matter the object of one's bigotry.



burnse22
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07 Aug 2008, 5:27 pm

The thing is that things like severe autism and alzheimers and suchlike are conditions affecting a human, and don't remove that person from the species. They are still human.

A man in a coma cannot reason, is he not human?

Once he wakes up he can reason again. Does this mean that he was temporarily not human? If so, does that mean that he holds no human rights while unconcious?

Medical conditions affect people, but do not define them.

I think that all humans are capable of reason.


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slowmutant
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07 Aug 2008, 7:09 pm

burnes22, I agree with and applaud your statements. :D



Awesomelyglorious
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07 Aug 2008, 7:26 pm

slowmutant wrote:
greenblue wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if people had the ability to reason, religion wouldn't exist by this point.


Bigot!

Does reason = bigotry? ;)


No, reason = reason. Bigotry = bigotry.

It doesn't matter the object of one's bigotry.

So, if instead of religion, skafather84 inserted any of the following terms: racism, fascism, totalitarianism, criminality, geocentrism, flat earthism, superstition, astrology, alcoholism, Marxism, Austrian economics, deontological ethics, nihilism, dare-devilry, mischief, and so on and so forth, would he be a bigot for inserting any and/or all of those terms in the place where he instead typed "religion"?



slowmutant
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07 Aug 2008, 7:30 pm

I don't know. It would depend on the context. Bigotry is easy to detect.



Awesomelyglorious
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07 Aug 2008, 7:38 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I don't know. It would depend on the context. Bigotry is easy to detect.

Well, I think the issue I was trying to bring up is where we have bigotry, and where we have a legitimate dismissal of a line of thought. Keep in mind, legitimately dismissing something does not mean that something should objectively be dismissed, but rather a sign that a subject can legitimately hold to a line of thought given the current available knowledge on a topic.



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07 Aug 2008, 8:22 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Well, I think the issue I was trying to bring up is where we have bigotry, and where we have a legitimate dismissal of a line of thought. Keep in mind, legitimately dismissing something does not mean that something should objectively be dismissed, but rather a sign that a subject can legitimately hold to a line of thought given the current available knowledge on a topic.


Thank you AG, I've been looking for a good way to say that for years! I think a lot of people are all too quick with the bigot label, and often use it as a bludgeon to crush lines of thought they don't like. Here in Seattle I've often thought that it's more socially acceptable to be thought someone who molests children in their basement than to be thought of as a bigot, especially a racist or homophobic bigot. Call it my contrary nature, but if I think someone's being overly sensitive I'll often deliberately provoke them into thinking me bigoted, only to confound them later. That was particularly effective when I had a black girlfriend, also known as racism accusation kryptonite :lol:.


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slowmutant
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07 Aug 2008, 8:28 pm

Why would you pretend to be a racist with that black girlfriend of yours if you're not really a racist?



Awesomelyglorious
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07 Aug 2008, 8:44 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Why would you pretend to be a racist with that black girlfriend of yours if you're not really a racist?

Because it can be fun to mess with people.... or maybe he *really* is a racist and only has a black girlfriend as something to hark back to the days before the civil war when white guys freely had sex with black women all of the time in coercive relationships. Btw, Dox, were you abusive to women at that time as well?



Dox47
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07 Aug 2008, 10:41 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Because it can be fun to mess with people.... or maybe he *really* is a racist and only has a black girlfriend as something to hark back to the days before the civil war when white guys freely had sex with black women all of the time in coercive relationships. Btw, Dox, were you abusive to women at that time as well?


Nah, convincing off-hand sexism is harder for me to pull off. Unless you consider the old fashioned chivalrous type of sexism to be abusive. Besides, just having a girlfriend doesn't insulate you from the accusation of sexism in quite the same way that having the black girlfriend shields you from the racism card. It really was funny too, I'd be talking to someone who didn't know me that well about my restaurant job and how working for tips makes you hate everyone, and you could just see them getting worked up about how "bigoted" I was. Then my girlfriend would show up and they'd just get this stunned look on their face, and I'd give them the most evil grin possible :lol:.

Incidentally, my ex was the least "urban" black person you could hope to meet, she went to school and worked full time, spoke Spanish English and German, was generally a highly driven person. Unfortunately, she was also crazy(borderline personality disorder), which with my at the time undiagnosed AS, it never occurred to me that how she acted wasn't normal. Definitely not subservient or demure though, if anyone ever got coerced into anything in that relationship, it was me! :D


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08 Aug 2008, 12:09 pm

skafather84 wrote:
if people had the ability to reason, religion wouldn't exist by this point.


Yay!! ! Not just religion. We wouldn't have wars, fashions, celebrities, tobacco.....the list is endless.

I believe that people have the potential to reason. Huge swathes of the population do not use that potential as they're too busy following the crowd. Eventually maybe that potential atrophies and reason becomes impossible.


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Dogbrain
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08 Aug 2008, 12:12 pm

ManErg wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if people had the ability to reason, religion wouldn't exist by this point.


Yay!! ! Not just religion. We wouldn't have wars, fashions, celebrities, tobacco.....the list is endless.


If people had the ability to reason, they would never disagree with MY prejudices. The list is endless.



Malsane
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15 Aug 2008, 2:46 am

First, I hate Kant. Really really really hate Kant.

Okay, so I'm kind of agreeing with several ideas. I think that humans a generally reason impaired. A normal, average person is not that logical. However, assuming no mental problems, they can learn to be more logical. I think some people do not have this capacity. I am friends with a psychotic individual (that is her diagnosis) and from my interactions with her, I really don't think she can be rational. I think it's just a limitation of hers. That probably sounds, but I don't mean it harshly.

Also, I don't think rationality is unique to humans. The only thing I've found that humans all have in common is DNA. We're biologically very similar, but that says little about our mentalities. I don't think our DNA is so special that we alone possess reason, especially when so few of us seem to be truly logical beings. I still don't think I've found a really, truly logical human, unfortunately myself included. Although, when I find a flaw in my thinking, I do my best to correct it!



slowmutant
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15 Aug 2008, 11:57 am

There are logical humans, and then there are "logical" humans. 8)



skafather84
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15 Aug 2008, 12:18 pm

slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if people had the ability to reason, religion wouldn't exist by this point.


Bigot!


santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy don't exist either. guess i'm a bigot there too, eh?