Pro-lifers, please stop doing that (scary pictures!)

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Awesomelyglorious
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15 Sep 2008, 9:14 am

Also, in response to your signature MissPickwickian. Yes, I am much happier.



philosopherBoi
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15 Sep 2008, 9:38 am

In the case of the child suffering from horrible condition that are not reversible or treatable where the quality of life is non-existing I support abortion and when the mother's life is at a high risk I also support abortion. Basically if done for a ligament reason I support abortion however in the case of stupid reasons like the mother just don't want the child then I say no way.


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BokeKaeru
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15 Sep 2008, 10:00 am

ToadOfSteel wrote:
My only issue is with the third argument. As it stands now, yes, abortion is not genocide. However, simplistic NT's tend to lump all genetic mutations together, and Autism will be lumped with those pictures you showed above (even though it is unwarranted). Once a reliable genetic test for autism is found, those Autism Spoken For mothers will insist on abortions for every autistic fetus, on account of how they are just as "defective" as those examples you showed.. even though in reality autistics are capable of living the same lifespan as a "normal" person, Autism Spoken For will merely argue that their child will not lead a "normal" life, and therefore will be in pain the entire time. Since The Almighty Autism Spoken For knows this for a fact, they will continue to erase this "blight" upon the human genome, until every last autistic is exterminated.

Abortion can be necessary. Those examples you showed are proof. The fact that it can save the life of the mother is proof. I just think its incredibly overused. Many pregnant women get abortions because it's inconvenient for them to have a child, and they were too dumb to use a contraceptive (This doesn't count for rape victims however, since they didn't choose to have sex.) There are less extreme alternatives: surrogate mothers, adoption, etc. I think abortion should be legal, but its use should be extremely limited to possible death of mother or fetus, rape victims, or fatal congenital defect (emphasis on fatal, meaning child will not survive long once born)


When it actually becomes enforced, or all but, by society or government that autistic or otherwise different babies are aborted whether or not they could have a good life according to more objective standards, then it can be considered genocide and eugenics.

But right now, while it's still in the realm of personal choice, and the genetic component isn't quite clear? Maybe, given financial issues, the age or otherwise maturity of the parent, and the lack of help they would get in jumping through all the hoops and getting what they need for their child, not having the kid is best for everyone. Especially because adoption becomes less of an option once it's known that the child isn't "perfect." Even if it were just a case of moms wanting to abort their future children because they think that disabilities were disgusting or otherwise undesirable, would you want the kid to either have to live with parents who hate them or being constantly shuffled around in the government system, in both situations quite possibly not getting the care and support they need? In a situation like that, maybe the most caring thing a parent could do at the time is NOT have the kid.

In the case of autism and other disabilities, I think it needs to be that acceptance for people already in existence comes first, and then willingness to have a child with such a condition rather than abort it will follow. All forcing a girl to have a kid she doesn't want in order to prevent a prospective genocide will cause is resentment - possibly not only towards her child, but projected onto other disabled people as well. Just as now it is not considered taboo to have a mulatto/mixed race child although some challenges still remain because of the improvements of race relations, hopefully once disability becomes more visible and respected, having a child with a non-fatal or otherwise unbearable condition will become okay, too.



ShawnWilliam
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15 Sep 2008, 11:51 am

I'm a pro-lifer, but it does put it into perspective.. i also believe; however, that there are circumstances to every situation.. terminating a fetus because of a serious defect is not the same as terminating a fetus because the mother changes her mind.. one of these things is necessary and the other is wrong..



slowmutant
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15 Sep 2008, 1:56 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
In the case of the child suffering from horrible condition that are not reversible or treatable where the quality of life is non-existing I support abortion and when the mother's life is at a high risk I also support abortion. Basically if done for a ligament reason I support abortion however in the case of stupid reasons like the mother just don't want the child then I say no way.


I totally agree with your perspective on this. Abortion is a last-resport measure, and shouldn't become too commonplace. Can suicide be rationalized using these same arguments? I think so. I think that, with enough time, anything that is unacceptable can be made acceptable.



slowmutant
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15 Sep 2008, 1:57 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:
I'm a pro-lifer, but it does put it into perspective.. i also believe; however, that there are circumstances to every situation.. terminating a fetus because of a serious defect is not the same as terminating a fetus because the mother changes her mind.. one of these things is necessary and the other is wrong..


Agreed.



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15 Sep 2008, 3:03 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I hate kittens, they taste funny.

What are you talking about? They taste good!


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greenblue
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15 Sep 2008, 3:05 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:
terminating a fetus because of a serious defect is not the same as terminating a fetus because the mother changes her mind.. one of these things is necessary and the other is wrong..

Both are absolutely necessary.


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MissPickwickian
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15 Sep 2008, 4:11 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:
Quote:
You're welcome.


Are you trying to make it sound like you're doing us a favor?


Jokingly, yes.

[...]

The whole abortion-autism thing is the main reason I Haven't Decided Yet. There are some genetic defects that are early and awful death sentences (Tay-Sachs disease, which renders children severely ret*d and, in the vast majority of cases, dead by age four, comes to mind). However, I have been hearing about couples aborting Down Syndrome and cystic fibrosis babies. This strikes me as horrifically unfair; these days, most people with Down Syndrome live happy if sheltered lives, and advances in medical science have increased lifespan and quality of life in cystic fibrosis patients. Abortion due to genetic defect is a complicated issue. In many cases, it is actually the humane option, but it always has the potential to be hideously misused (insert grim Nazi allusion here*). Oh, where do we draw the line? Case-sensitive ethics are a torture to the thinking man.

This thread is to my liking: lots of interesting opinions, not a lot of screaming and ranting.

*of course, the "suffering of victims" qualification is missing, so we cannot make this comparison without a slippery-slope argument or a qualifier.


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DentArthurDent
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15 Sep 2008, 4:41 pm

@MISS P wonderful


:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:


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Reodor_Felgen
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15 Sep 2008, 4:52 pm

There's a difference between aborting perfectly healthy children and aborting children with severe birth defects.



MissPickwickian
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15 Sep 2008, 6:22 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
@MISS P wonderful


Did you just bow down to me 23 times??

Well, I did put more thought than usual into all this. 8)


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claire-333
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15 Sep 2008, 9:20 pm

Regardless of my views, I find posting those photos to be in poor taste. If you had chosen to post links with a warning, I could have just skipped it...and would have.



greenblue
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15 Sep 2008, 9:29 pm

I can see your eyes turned yellow :P


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claire-333
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15 Sep 2008, 9:38 pm

greenblue wrote:
I can see your eyes turned yellow :P
I see you have changed too. Are those palm trees? Ahh...reminds me of home. :D



ShawnWilliam
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15 Sep 2008, 11:01 pm

greenblue wrote:
ShawnWilliam wrote:
terminating a fetus because of a serious defect is not the same as terminating a fetus because the mother changes her mind.. one of these things is necessary and the other is wrong..

Both are absolutely necessary.


uhh, no.. it's called adoption.