Why not machines

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28 Sep 2008, 9:04 pm

Dude if you don't even believe compassion and humanity have a place in society, that makes you a total psychopath. I tend to think morality and the ability to treat human life as something more than a set of digits is rather paramount. No, I don't think peoples' well being and dignity and human rights are expendable, nor are human lives expendable. But that's what it sounds like your saying here. I don't care about some mathematical figures or some stupid symbols... We humans speak in words. Hell I still don't know what the f**k that picture explains. Are you a robot?

I tend to think all life and all humanity has certain unalienable rights, the right to live unabused, the right to live, that's humanity speaking. But apparently if I'm hearing you right, humanity or conscience is apparently a debased primative thing in your mind...... That's pure psychopathy.

chever
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28 Sep 2008, 9:50 pm

snake321 wrote:

Dude if you don't even believe compassion and humanity have a place in society, that makes you a total psychopath. I tend to think morality and the ability to treat human life as something more than a set of digits is rather paramount. No, I don't think peoples' well being and dignity and human rights are expendable, nor are human lives expendable. But that's what it sounds like your saying here.

I tend to think all life and all humanity has certain unalienable rights, the right to live unabused, the right to live, that's humanity speaking. But apparently if I'm hearing you right, humanity or conscience is apparently a debased primative thing in your mind...... That's pure psychopathy.

I'm kicking around material running in my head for a short story.

Quote:

The leader of the rangers removed his goggles to examine the survivor closely. He shuddered in horror as his face was revealed, for few humans had ever seen them fully and lived to tell. The ranger's face was typically Nordic and a shock of nearly white hair fringed his helmet. But two inscrutably black Mongoloid eyes stared back at him, drinking in every detail.

In a perverse way, it made sense for the survivor. These machines were adapted perfectly for the nuclear winter: pale as snow and still guarded from the blinding glare of the wastes where they fought their unending war. Efficient in every way. But, above all, they were a mockery. A way for their commanding intelligence to tell humans it could outdo them in any way, and a reminder of how the white and yellow men who once ruled the world lost their crown to their successors.

[some missing material]

"I hate you. We hate you." the leader replied. Indeed there was not even a trace of anger in his deep voice.

The survivor struggled to find words. "Why? Why? You don't even know me..." he protested weakly.

Again the leader appeared to have a hard time grappling with something he did not fully understand. He scowled and squinted and tugged at the long strands of teeth hanging from his neck. At last he answered at a cautious, measured pace: "That was never a bar for you to hate your own kind."

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snake321
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28 Sep 2008, 10:34 pm

I still don't understand what your saying here..... I know humans aren't perfect but maybe we're not supposed to be perfect.... (I'm not saying that provides an excuse for people to be ignorant either). But there is another side to humans, a side people take for granted.... Humans have love, and compassion, and life. Or at least the ability to live, to truely live, to care for one another, to grow old together and to learn from life.
Maybe a robot doesn't hate other robots, but it doesn't have any emotions at all. If we are ruled by machines they will subject us to being expendable resources. A set of digits in a computer, nothing more. To think humans don't deserve better than that is almost on the line of being a halucaust supporter. So I'm still not grasping whatever it is your saying here.

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28 Sep 2008, 11:17 pm

snake321 wrote:

But there is another side to humans, a side people take for granted.... Humans have love, and compassion, and life. Or at least the ability to live, to truely live, to care for one another, to grow old together and to learn from life.

i.e., 'fluff'. Are you saying machines can't learn?

snake321 wrote:

Maybe a robot doesn't hate other robots, but it doesn't have any emotions at all. If we are ruled by machines they will subject us to being expendable resources. A set of digits in a computer, nothing more.

I like to think of a set of vertices to be 'garbage collected'.

Now watch this video and consider what you said carefully..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8ajZwHFBI[/youtube]

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28 Sep 2008, 11:37 pm

chever wrote:

snake321 wrote:

i.e., 'fluff'. Are you saying machines can't learn?

snake321 wrote:

I like to think of a set of vertices to be 'garbage collected'.

Now watch this video and consider what you said carefully..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8ajZwHFBI[/youtube]

I am saying machines aren't capable of taking care of people, machines don't have compassion. To a machine, people are expendable resources. To a machine, our lives are expendable. Our entire livelihood is expendable. Human lives are expendable. Humans may not be perfect, but at least we can care for one another. To a machine, we're just expendable resources. Our lives and our well being doesn't matter to a machine.
Also, you can't just assume all human beings are inherintly evil just because governments are crooked or bad things happening through history. Those are things the common person doesn't have anything to do with. Place blame where it's due, it's not on the entire human race and every person that has ever walked the earth. **If** that were the case, you'd have to blame yourself too.
Also, machines don't gain real knowledge, they don't gain wisdom. They don't learn important lessons. They don't have any freedom of thought to do so. They learn to perform tasks.

Last edited by snake321 on 28 Sep 2008, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

snake321
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28 Sep 2008, 11:39 pm

Do you believe humans deserve rights? Do you believe we should be treated fairly?
I mean obviously you do to some degree or you wouldn't have used that video to demonise human beings for how **some** humans have treated other humans. If your answer to that problem is to destroy humanity in favor of robots, or to let machines rise to wipe humans out, or enslave humans, well then your contradicting yourself. Your saying humans don't treat humans humanely, therefore, lets exterminate all humans. How humane is that?

Last edited by snake321 on 28 Sep 2008, 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Sep 2008, 11:48 pm

snake321 wrote:

That's odd. Last time I checked we hadn't made AI for which you could really say they assigned any introspective value to other things.

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28 Sep 2008, 11:54 pm

twoshots wrote:

snake321 wrote:

That's odd. Last time I checked we hadn't made AI for which you could really say they assigned any introspective value to other things.

No, they don't. But they also assigned no extrospective value to other things.

Last edited by snake321 on 28 Sep 2008, 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chever
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28 Sep 2008, 11:55 pm

snake321 wrote:

I'm pretty sure you said all of that already and I'm pretty sure I understood the first time.

snake321 wrote:

Also, you can't just assume all human beings are inherintly evil just because governments are crooked or bad things happening through history. Those are things the common person doesn't have anything to do with.

No one voted for Hitler?

snake321 wrote:

**If** that were the case, you'd have to blame yourself too.

Sure. Ambitious middle-class a**hole with an easy life profiting from the hard labor of millions of poor people.

snake321 wrote:

Also, machines don't gain real knowledge, they don't gain wisdom. They don't learn important lessons. They don't have any freedom of thought to do so. They learn to perform tasks.

As a prospective AI grad student I have to ask: do you know what you're talking about?

snake321 wrote:

Do you believe humans deserve rights? Do you believe we should be treated fairly?

What is a 'right'? What are the dimensions of a 'right'? Show me a 'right'.

snake321 wrote:

If your answer to that problem is to destroy humanity in favor of robots, or to let machines rise to wipe humans out, or enslave humans, well then your contradicting yourself. Your saying humans don't treat humans humanely, therefore, lets exterminate all humans. How humane is that?

It isn't. It's full circle, and entirely consistent.

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Last edited by chever on 28 Sep 2008, 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

snake321
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28 Sep 2008, 11:58 pm

Ok, so ***some** human beings voted for Hitler. Your "fix" is to allow machines to exterminate ALL humans? Because of what SOME people have done? Talk about a self riteous hypocrite. You talk about how humans mistreat eachother, or how Hitler exterminated innocent people, and your "solution" is to build machines to exterminate innocent people. There's a word for that, it's called a HYPOCRITE.

Last edited by snake321 on 29 Sep 2008, 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Sep 2008, 11:59 pm

chever wrote:

As a prospective AI grad student I have to ask: do you know what you're talking about?

Yeah, you keep bragging about your stupid little degree. It doesn't mean anything, it means you have book smarts. It doesn't mean you've learned anything REAL in life.

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29 Sep 2008, 12:01 am

snake321 wrote:

Ok, so ***some** human beings voted for Hitler. Your "fix" is to allow machines to exterminate ALL humans? Because of what SOME people have done? Talk about a self riteous hypocrite.

How am I self-righteous?

How am I a hypocrite?

And, more importantly, why do you think berating me is going to advance your case?

snake321 wrote:

chever wrote:

As a prospective AI grad student I have to ask: do you know what you're talking about?

Yeah, you keep bragging about your stupid little degree. It doesn't mean anything, it means you have book smarts. It doesn't mean you've learned anything REAL in life.

I'm not a doctor yet. But I must say:

http://www.darpa.mil/ipto/

If I were you, I'd be sh*****g bricks.

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Last edited by chever on 29 Sep 2008, 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

snake321
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29 Sep 2008, 12:04 am

Ok, so you talk about Hitler exterminating people as evil, but then you condone machines being put in the position to exterminate people, as a solution? That's why I called you a hypocrite, idiot.

Last edited by snake321 on 29 Sep 2008, 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

chever
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29 Sep 2008, 12:08 am

oops, DARPA sites need the www. Again, that's

http://www.darpa.mil/ipto/

snake321 wrote:

Ok, so you talk about Hitler exterminating people as evil, but then you condone machines being put in the position to exterminate people, as a solution? That's why I called you a hypocrite, idiot.

I don't believe in good or evil. I believe in actions of positive or negative utility. Humans sending their own kind to death camps has negative utility. Machines sending humans to death camps would have positive utility (wrt the machines)

Now, for your edification:

Quote:

God sent diseases
God sent in pieces
God sent obsession
God sent pervasive inhumanity
God sent destruction
God sent perdition
God sent aggression
God sent compulsive immorality

Kiss the deceased

God sent perversion
God sent abortion
God sent damnation
God sent perpetual catastrophe
God sent distraction
God sent delusion
God sent contagion
God sent obsessive sex deficiency

Kiss the deceased

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snake321
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29 Sep 2008, 12:13 am

chever wrote:

oops, DARPA sites need the www. Again, that's

http://www.darpa.mil/ipto/

snake321 wrote:

Ok, so you talk about Hitler exterminating people as evil, but then you condone machines being put in the position to exterminate people, as a solution? That's why I called you a hypocrite, idiot.

Quote:

Dude, your a psychopath, you should go to a death camp. You mean to tell me, you'd support building machines to send millions of innocent men, woman, and children to die? Man, your a psychopath...... You'd sit there and listen to millions of children screaming in ovens because of machines YOU built, without batting an eyelash... And the machine itself kills nobody, a person had to build the machine. So there again, it's still humans killing human no matter how you wanna cut it.

PROOF EVERYONE, PSYCHOPATHS GET DEGREES AND GET AHEAD IN THIS SYSTEM, TO PLACES OF INFLUENCE. HAVE I NOT BEEN TELLING YOU THIS?

Last edited by snake321 on 29 Sep 2008, 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

chever
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29 Sep 2008, 12:16 am

Telling me I'm a rotten person didn't elevate my mood

Boy I sure feel sh***y

(Hey, I got an idea!)

Did you click on the corrected link for the IPTO defense project? Are you thinking about its implications, if carried out fully? Are you sh*****g bricks yet?

GOD SENT DISEASES
GOD SENT IN PIECES
GOD SENT OBSESSION
GOD SENT PERVASIVE INHUMANITY

nyah-hah-hah

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"You can take me, but you cannot take my bunghole! For I have no bunghole! I am the Great Cornholio!"

Last edited by chever on 29 Sep 2008, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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