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techstepgenr8tion
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01 Oct 2008, 7:30 pm

Saying that its about revenge is too simple.

First, when most people murder - you have to understand that most of them feel great about themselves, they're narcissists, sociopaths, they aren't built like your or I.

Second, people who are of the basic and animalistic ilk *do* need a deterrent such as death. They don't really have real remorse over things, they just get angry if they're caught.

Thirdly, when people are that twisted up - we're spending money to keep people alive who really have no business still being here; 3 meals a day, to the grave many times, and many of the same people make the climate as such to where even if a normal person somehow f's up and ends up in prison they can't just do their time; they either have to pick a fight on day one or be a victim, people can really only get worse in that kind of environment.



theQuail
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01 Oct 2008, 8:18 pm

I would theoretically support the death penalty if there is strong evidence that the person would pose a risk to society even while imprisoned (from possible escape, killing guards, etc.). Maximum security prisons pretty much eliminate that risk, so I wouldn't usually support it.

I don't think the death penalty is an effective deterrent because psychopaths don't feel fear (if current psychology is correct), so they certainly can't fear the consequences of their actions. Probably only the non-psychopathic "normal" people would be deterred. (If they turn out to be a significant number of convicted murderers, I would rethink my position.) Of course some can't be rehabilitated, but the process of giving someone a death sentence is very long and expensive. It's better just to confine murderers to a secure setting, indefinitely if they cannot be rehabilitated. If punishment is part of the aim of the death penalty, consider that a life sentence must be worse than the relatively painless death brought on by modern methods. And more painful methods... eww.



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01 Oct 2008, 8:20 pm

mikebw wrote:
Psimulus wrote:
I do not need someones words to satisfy my feelings. I am in control of my own emotions, whether you believe this or not, it is true for me. Perhaps it is your concept of retribution that is selfish.


I have no interest in retribution, as I have said, I don't care to attempt to punish them. There is no eye for an eye when one man has raped and murdered many people, only a fathomless god could hope to bring such scum to true justice. Punishment is pointless unless it does something good, and I don't believe it does any good on someone who has gone the ultimate distance, especially when they see the punishment isn't all that bad. Wanting to protect potential victims and alleviate society from the burden of care is hardly as selfish as wishing to force society to fit the bill while people like you psychoanalyze these beasts. And for what end? To isolate the offending gene? To try to pinpoint something common among these people who are and whose reasons are as diverse as any two people you might meet? Pah, a waste of time. Short of ultimate control there is no way any info will ever prevent murder or rape.


When you say you have no interest in retribution and, that you dont care to attempt to punish, the term capital "punishment" comes to mind. I believe that we are all part of what you perceive to be a fathomless "god" for I also believe that what some people consider to be "god" is actually the infinite Universe. I admit I am an optimist, though some would choose the negative and assume I am naive. If you murder someone for murdering someone, are you not commiting the same act that you wish to deter? Psychoanalysis or self reflection is part what gives rise to intelligence and consciousness. Our world, I believe, will be more peaceful once this is generally accepted. Information is what allows us to prepare and prevent potential future outcomes.


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Orwell
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01 Oct 2008, 8:40 pm

The risk of screwing up and executing an innocent person is too high to justify capital punishment, which is primarily intended for vengeance. Besides, most determinist ideologies don't support the idea of retributive punishment.

I think it's time we moved our legal code past this vengeful nonsense. The punishment for any crime should serve as a deterrent, recompense the victim, or rehabilitate the criminal. Anything done purely for sake of vengeance has no place in the law system of a civilized society.


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01 Oct 2008, 8:44 pm

Orwell wrote:
The risk of screwing up and executing an innocent person is too high to justify capital punishment, which is primarily intended for vengeance. Besides, most determinist ideologies don't support the idea of retributive punishment.

I think it's time we moved our legal code past this vengeful nonsense. The punishment for any crime should serve as a deterrent, recompense the victim, or rehabilitate the criminal. Anything done purely for sake of vengeance has no place in the law system of a civilized society.

Retribution != vengeance.

How on earth is it civilized to have deterrent justice?

"Now what right have you to punish me for the amelioration or intimidation of others?"

That punishment which is visited upon me must be exactly the equal of my deed, not the equal of the potential deeds of others who are responsible for their own actions.


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02 Oct 2008, 12:29 am

The possibility of innocence is too great to kill a "criminal."

DNA can be "fudged" by the lab workers. (Been done before.)
Fingerprints can be "planted."
The man in the videotape might LOOK like the man in the electric chair, but is it REALLY him? Could be...

Revenge is not justice.


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crackedpleasures
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02 Oct 2008, 12:46 pm

Those who put money at higher importance than a human life (even when it is a killer): you disgust me, seriously. How can money ever be a reason to justify killing? I happily pay taxes to keep prisoners fed and healthy, after all I rather pay to a prison than to a government which finds it OK to kill its own citizens.


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history_of_psychiatry
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02 Oct 2008, 3:32 pm

I believe in eye for an eye. Thus, I believe in the death penalty. However, I don't agree with how it is handled. We have these criminals on death row for years, and our tax money supports them. Also, since i believe in eye for an eye, i don't think that electricuting someone to death is justice if he stabbed someone to death. You should have to suffer the EXACT attrocity that your victim felt. If you stabbed someone to death, YOU will get stabbed to death. IMMEDIATLY, not on death row for years. If you shot someone, YOU will get shot. If you raped somene, we have this machine with a rod-like device that moves in and out. You will be put ass-first ito the machine and let it rape you for a few minutes. Afterwords, you are free to go. You paid your debt to socity. Good luck trying to walk now. I know you may think that's cruel and unusual punishment, but it isn't! It's totlly the opposite. A rapist being in jail for a few years doesn't teach him. It doesn't show him the pain that his victim felt.


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02 Oct 2008, 3:54 pm

i'm against the death penalty.


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mikebw
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02 Oct 2008, 6:27 pm

Quote:
Those who put money at higher importance than a human life (even when it is a killer): you disgust me, seriously. How can money ever be a reason to justify killing? I happily pay taxes to keep prisoners fed and healthy, after all I rather pay to a prison than to a government which finds it OK to kill its own citizens.


Money is earned by labor or effort, labor/effort takes time, time is not a resource. Why should any money that anyone has EARNED go to some gang bangers, murderers and rapists who are all raping each other in prison? So you can feel better? There are a million and one better uses to put that money too.

If they're going to use OUR money to cage people they should do it properly or not do it at all. I can't consciously support a prison system where rape is practically endorsed, you want to talk about barbarianism... go live in prison, where it's rape or be raped, and fear rules. I'd much rather have the rapists and murderers killed so that others that go to prison aren't ruled by those animals.


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03 Oct 2008, 1:02 pm

I do have some concerns with the possibility of an innocent person being executed. And I do know that death penalty cases can be more expensive than lifetime incarceration. So, I can see some practical reasons for opposing the death penalty. But I do think some people deserve to die, like serial killers or those who murder innocent people to eliminate witnesses to their other crimes. Such people if not killed deserve to spend the rest of their lives in the most miserable conditions possible. Again there is the problem of the falsely accused but any punishment will be unfair to them no matter how light. It is a tricky balance to look out for the rights of the falsely accused while giving the truly bad people the suffering they deserve.



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03 Oct 2008, 1:25 pm

history_of_psychiatry wrote:
I believe in eye for an eye. Thus, I believe in the death penalty. However, I don't agree with how it is handled. We have these criminals on death row for years, and our tax money supports them. Also, since i believe in eye for an eye, i don't think that electricuting someone to death is justice if he stabbed someone to death. You should have to suffer the EXACT attrocity that your victim felt. If you stabbed someone to death, YOU will get stabbed to death. IMMEDIATLY, not on death row for years. If you shot someone, YOU will get shot. If you raped somene, we have this machine with a rod-like device that moves in and out. You will be put ass-first ito the machine and let it rape you for a few minutes. Afterwords, you are free to go. You paid your debt to socity. Good luck trying to walk now. I know you may think that's cruel and unusual punishment, but it isn't! It's totlly the opposite. A rapist being in jail for a few years doesn't teach him. It doesn't show him the pain that his victim felt.


I agree with a lot of what you say but if we don't have "have these criminals on death row for years" how can we give them enough appeals to be reasonably sure they're guilty? Even now we can't be 100% certain. If you have a way to prove guilt to the same level of certainty that we have now in a shorter time, I'm interested. But my concern for the falsely accused still does give me pause, much as I'd like to see a real scumbag get ripped apart in the ways you describe.



crackedpleasures
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04 Oct 2008, 9:11 am

Eye for an eye should have been abandoned in medieval times. If you believe in this practice, you are no better than the rapist or murderer yourself. I mean, imagine person A rapes someone, thus person B rapes person A for the sake of justice. However, this makes person B a rapist as well, thus needs to be raped by yet another person, and so on, and so on ... Eye for eye puts you on the same low level as the rapist or killer, nothing more and nothing less. I believe in a civilised society where even harsh criminals get treated in a humane way. I dont mind them having TV and internet access in their cells. I dont mind them getting good food and medical treatment. In the end they are no longer a threat to society because they are locked up, so justice has been done. Justice is about protecting the society against the individual, not about vengeance. Also, freedom is of core importance to live a happy life, so a bit of comfort in a prison cell will not change the fact that you are locked up. By enprisonment society is protected against the dangerous person, and the person has paid his dues. By forced labour in prison the prisoner still has a role in society and somewhat can pay something back after all the harm he has done.

The death penalty is government sponsored killing and makes all government and maybe all those who voted for them, a sort of a killer as well. The day the country where I live re introduces capital punishment, I am relocating on the spot rather than to pay a single cent of taxes to a government that puts the value of human life on a low level.


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04 Oct 2008, 1:27 pm

I support the death penalty because I think that some people deserve to die. Here in America, I'd like to see a higher standard applied when seeking it, but in general am supportive.


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04 Oct 2008, 2:00 pm

crackedpleasures wrote:
Those who put money at higher importance than a human life (even when it is a killer): you disgust me, seriously. How can money ever be a reason to justify killing?


When that person is a detriment, that's how.


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04 Oct 2008, 2:10 pm

I support what works.

The death penalty apparently isn't doing it.


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