math and scince cant make me lose faith

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Magnus
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17 Dec 2008, 10:00 pm

Have you heard of Pythagorean Theology?

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/ETP/I.html

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slowmutant
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17 Dec 2008, 10:16 pm

Math & science, what little I know of them, don't damage my faith at all. If anything, they strengthen my faith in God. The insights of math & science demonstrate a thoroughly ordered, obviously created universe. Order and Randomness, I think, are perceptions. It all seems to depend on the magnifying power of the microscope, Order and Randomness. Order implies purpose. Purpose implies intelligence. Try to imagine a Purpose that pervades every layer and strata of the Infinite Universe. That is what many call God.

At certain magnifications, everything seems random.

But at other magnifications, order is self-evident.

How thin a slice of the Infinite Universe is human science actually privy to?

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18 Dec 2008, 2:51 am

your topics headline isnt news

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Fraya
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18 Dec 2008, 12:49 pm

slowmutant wrote:

The insights of math & science demonstrate a thoroughly ordered, obviously created universe.

Just because something is ordered does not mean it was created by an intelligence.

The laws of the universe seem to make "beautiful sense" because it is OUR universe. If the laws were different we would think those laws were "thoroughly ordered" and proof of God because those were the laws under which we evolved and we would be having this discussion by waving our 16 tentacles in a peculiar fashion while looking up at the purple sun and pink sky.

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ToadOfSteel
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18 Dec 2008, 1:32 pm

Existence itself (in the form of space-time) cannot just spontaneously come into... well... existence... That's just a recursive process that would make everything go to s**t if it were true...

As it stands, sure Newton discovered the first laws of physics, but who invented them?

Fraya
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18 Dec 2008, 1:41 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Ok so if we assume that existence cannot simply spring from nothing (a conclusion you have no evidence for except "I don't understand how it would work") then it would logically follow that some other force caused it to happen. Does that mean that force was intelligent or sentient? Not at all.

As for who invented physics that's like asking who invented the way the pile of clothes on my bedroom floor lay. No one did that's just the way things turned out.

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ToadOfSteel
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18 Dec 2008, 1:55 pm

Fraya wrote:

Did logic exist before the Big Bang?

Fraya
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18 Dec 2008, 2:21 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Did logic exist before the Big Bang?

/facepalm

Probably not or at least the laws of physics we have now most likely didn't apply which is why I said we were assuming you were right. For all we know the universe simply poofing into existence without anyone or anything causing it to might have been normal under the laws that governed whatever came before it. Our brains are keyed to function and think under the laws that we evolved under so we are most likely unable to comprehend what things were like or what happened just before the big bang. That being said applying our logic to say "Something had to cause the creation of the universe and it had to be something really powerful so praise Jeebus" is taking a boatload of assumptions, subjective observations, and the arrogant assumption our logic applied back then to absurd extremes.

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slowmutant
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22 Dec 2008, 4:57 pm

Fraya wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

The insights of math & science demonstrate a thoroughly ordered, obviously created universe.

Order implies intelligence. Order implies purpose.

Ordered things, especially if they are intricately ordered, suggest an ordering intelligence.

But a belief in a supreme intelligence or Creator, that speaks to perception and choice. I choose to see things a certain way, I guess.

Phagocyte
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22 Dec 2008, 5:20 pm

slowmutant wrote:

This is well-said. I understand where you're coming from.

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skafather84
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22 Dec 2008, 5:36 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Order implies intelligence. Order implies purpose

wrong and wrong again.

if an atom can only stay stable with a certain weight and certain pull and attraction, then the order simply is the only way it can exist. no intelligence needed: it wouldn't exist if not ordered correctly.

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slowmutant
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22 Dec 2008, 6:44 pm

Fraya wrote:

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Fraya, if you had a shred of intellectual honesty you would admit that you do not know how things came into being. I Don't Know are the three words people like you cannot seem to say.

ruveyn
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31 Jan 2009, 10:14 pm

claire333 wrote:

The only glitch with superstring and M theory is they are based on a 10 and 11 dimensional construct. We are three dimensional beings, unable to ever see in 10 or 11 dimensions. If mathematics proves them to be true, we will still never be able to truly see it for ourselves. One might as well believe in God.

We can't see atoms. But there is very strong evidence for them. Causes can be established without direct unaided perception.

ruveyn

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