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Virginia Child Porn Cartoon Conviction Upheld

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Ragtime
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23 Dec 2008, 5:00 pm

greenblue wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

so does this mean anyone caught in possession of forced/rape porn* will get arrested for rape now too?

*porn, not police evidence...the fictional stuff.

If so, they should also outlaw violent hollywood movies depicting acts of murdering and violent behaviour as well.

I think just saying "rape", "porn", or "child" should get you the electric chair!

It reminds me of another true story a few years ago about a fast-food training manual which said the company takes a "pedagogical approach" to employee training. The writer was called before his boss, a woman who then threatened to fire him because of his illegal and perverse suggestion.

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slowmutant
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23 Dec 2008, 8:32 pm

skafather84 wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

history_of_psychiatry wrote:

Actual child porn should be illegal without a doubt, but you can get arrested for animating now?? Freekin ridiculous.

You've really gotta be careful with pornography, especially if it's the kind circulated by pedophiles for their private & extremely vile enjoyment. Even if it doesn't involve photography of actual nude erotically posed children, it's still grist for the pedophile mill. It's what gets these guys all hot and bothered and wanting to f**k a real live kid. So that's why I say no to kiddie porn of all varieties. Animated or otherwise.

i'd rather allow them an animated output rather than being all hot and bothered with no output and potentially more impetus to either photograph real kids or harm real kids. i think the denial of some kind of sexual output for those people would cause more trouble. but then again, i'm thinking of it as a pacifier, not cannon fodder.

As a pacifier, how about chemical/surgical castration?

ike
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23 Dec 2008, 9:15 pm

slowmutant wrote:

As a pacifier, how about chemical/surgical castration?

Not sure if this applies to pedophilia, however, chemical or surgical castration is known to be ineffective with adult rapists.

As to whether it's better to let them have an outlet or not, we would need actual cognitive studies that indicate the effect of exposure to the cartoon, or at least, studies that could be inferred to have some bearing. In the absence of specific studies, we don't know actually whether the cartoons make it easier for them to cope with (and suppress) the urge, or whether the cartoons make the urges stronger.

Either way, I have a really tough time with the cartoon being illegal. For one because people are capable of changing or of defying stereotypes, so even if the cartoon makes the urge stronger, that's no guarantee that any individual with the cartoons will ever actually harm a child. (And autistic people in general are great at defying stereotypes, so we should know about that sort of thing better than anyone else.) And secondly because there is no victim and I oppose criminalizing victimless activities like gay marriage.

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skafather84
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23 Dec 2008, 10:11 pm

ike wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

As a pacifier, how about chemical/surgical castration?

Not sure if this applies to pedophilia, however, chemical or surgical castration is known to be ineffective with adult rapists.

yeah, it's normally more of a psychological problem. cutting off a guy's balls isn't going to disable his fingers.

and what about females? you going to mandate hysterectomies as well?

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Dox47
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23 Dec 2008, 10:54 pm

I think that Slowmutant just blew any remaining credibility he had when he called me a liberal...
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Dox47
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23 Dec 2008, 11:03 pm

Quite aside from the Constitutional issues involved with criminalizing drawings, who's to say that this won't cause more people to seek out real child pornography? If animated child porn is treated the same as the real thing, there is no incentive not to get the real deal, since you'll be prosecuted the same either way. It's sort of like imposing the death penalty for stealing, suddenly it makes much more sense to murder the witnesses since the punishment is the same and the chances of being caught are reduced by doing so. You can always trust people to pursue their best interests, if the market for real child porn goes up because the animated stuff is illegal, more children will be hurt fulfilling the demand since there is more money to be made. Tolerating the animated porn is definitely the lesser of two evils in this case, as well as being Constitutionally correct.

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Dox47
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23 Dec 2008, 11:06 pm

Ragtime wrote:

It reminds me of another true story a few years ago about a fast-food training manual which said the company takes a "pedagogical approach" to employee training. The writer was called before his boss, a woman who then threatened to fire him because of his illegal and perverse suggestion.

Remember the DC city government worker who was fired for using the word "niggardly"? (incidentally, it's a Scandinavian synonym for miserly) Even after the mix up was publicly explained, the local black bar association continued to support his termination because he shouldn't have used a word that "sounded like a racial slur"...

/sigh

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Orwell
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23 Dec 2008, 11:11 pm

I think we definitely need more child pornography, and not just that anime stuff either- real kids, just go borrow a few of them from the local daycare for a photo shoot and off you go. This man was actually performing an essential service by catering to an under-served market and should not be jailed but instead given a Congressional Medal of Honor, and possibly a Nobel prize as well.

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ike
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24 Dec 2008, 12:06 am

Dox47 wrote:

Quite aside from the Constitutional issues involved with criminalizing drawings, who's to say that this won't cause more people to seek out real child pornography? If animated child porn is treated the same as the real thing, there is no incentive not to get the real deal, since you'll be prosecuted the same either way. It's sort of like imposing the death penalty for stealing, suddenly it makes much more sense to murder the witnesses since the punishment is the same and the chances of being caught are reduced by doing so. You can always trust people to pursue their best interests, if the market for real child porn goes up because the animated stuff is illegal, more children will be hurt fulfilling the demand since there is more money to be made. Tolerating the animated porn is definitely the lesser of two evils in this case, as well as being Constitutionally correct.

Valid point. Although people generally refuse to accept that (valid) argument for keeping hands-free cell-phones for the car legal either... the law that banned them just guarantees that people who might otherwise choose to be more conscientious (by purchasing a hands-free phone or adapter for the car) will instead choose to be much more dangerous because hands-free equipment for the car is unavailable to them because it's illegal to manufacture or sell it. All based on very shaky science that says that talking on a speaker phone is more dangerous than talking to a passenger.

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Dox47
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24 Dec 2008, 12:21 am

Orwell wrote:

I think we definitely need more child pornography, and not just that anime stuff either- real kids, just go borrow a few of them from the local daycare for a photo shoot and off you go. This man was actually performing an essential service by catering to an under-served market and should not be jailed but instead given a Congressional Medal of Honor, and possibly a Nobel prize as well.

Tsk tsk Orwell, a Reductio ad absurdum isn't quite up to your usual standards. Next you'll be insinuating that anyone supporting my position must be a pedophile themselves. You haven't been to Canada recently have you? There seems to be something in the water up there...

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Orwell
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24 Dec 2008, 12:34 am

Dox47 wrote:

Tsk tsk Orwell, a Reductio ad absurdum isn't quite up to your usual standards. Next you'll be insinuating that anyone supporting my position must be a pedophile themselves. You haven't been to Canada recently have you? There seems to be something in the water up there...

What the hell are you talking about, and why do people keep calling me on nonexistent reductio ad absurdums? Check the definition of a term before you try to use it, please.

And in case you were having an Aspie moment, my post in favor of kiddie porn was sarcasm. I haven't taken any serious stance on this guy yet, at least not that I've posted here. If you care to know: criminalizing drawings is dumb, no matter what the drawing is of. But this guy was also involved in real child porn, and should be prosecuted for that.

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Dox47
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24 Dec 2008, 2:23 am

Orwell wrote:

What the hell are you talking about, and why do people keep calling me on nonexistent reductio ad absurdums? Check the definition of a term before you try to use it, please.

I took the position that criminalizing drawn child pornography might actually increase the production of real child pornography, and your very next post is this sarcastic thing calling for more child porn. What else am I supposed to make of that but taking my position to an absurd conclusion? I wasn't attacking you, but you may want to reexamine the postings in question.

Orwell wrote:

And in case you were having an Aspie moment, my post in favor of kiddie porn was sarcasm. I haven't taken any serious stance on this guy yet, at least not that I've posted here. If you care to know: criminalizing drawings is dumb, no matter what the drawing is of. But this guy was also involved in real child porn, and should be prosecuted for that.

I'm not in favor of kiddie porn either, but I'm definitely against overly broad criminal statues supposedly designed to fight it. I'm not defending this guy personally, as he did have actual child porn involved in his conviction, but I am attacking the idea of criminalizing an illustration or written words, both of which are mentioned in the article quoted in my OP. I already know of one case where a man was sentenced to prison because of an image in his internet cache, and if the definition of what is illegal is widened as much as this case would suggest, millions of people could be exposed to sex crimes charges.

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atari2600a
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24 Dec 2008, 3:39 am

Dox47 wrote:

I'm not in favor of kiddie porn either, but I'm definitely against overly broad criminal statues supposedly designed to fight it. I'm not defending this guy personally, as he did have actual child porn involved in his conviction, but I am attacking the idea of criminalizing an illustration or written words, both of which are mentioned in the article quoted in my OP. I already know of one case where a man was sentenced to prison because of an image in his internet cache, and if the definition of what is illegal is widened as much as this case would suggest, millions of people could be exposed to sex crimes charges.

IIRC there have been cases in which installing those super mega ultra deleters that do a 35-pass & all that fun stuff, have been considered evidence in convictions...lol

slowmutant
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24 Dec 2008, 8:30 am

skafather84 wrote:

ike wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

As a pacifier, how about chemical/surgical castration?

Not sure if this applies to pedophilia, however, chemical or surgical castration is known to be ineffective with adult rapists.

yeah, it's normally more of a psychological problem. cutting off a guy's balls isn't going to disable his fingers.

and what about females? you going to mandate hysterectomies as well?

Female pedophiles are so ridiculously rare, like conjoined twins. :roll:

:roll:

skafather84
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24 Dec 2008, 11:51 am

slowmutant wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ike wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

As a pacifier, how about chemical/surgical castration?

Not sure if this applies to pedophilia, however, chemical or surgical castration is known to be ineffective with adult rapists.

yeah, it's normally more of a psychological problem. cutting off a guy's balls isn't going to disable his fingers.

and what about females? you going to mandate hysterectomies as well?

Female pedophiles are so ridiculously rare, like conjoined twins. :roll:

:roll:

mary kay letourneau

debra lafave

pamela turner

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slowmutant
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24 Dec 2008, 12:11 pm

Is that the complete list?

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