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Fnord
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15 Mar 2009, 6:13 pm

Magnus wrote:

Edgar Cayce was not a fake. Have you (fnord) actually sifted through the mountains of evidence from his case files? What did he gain from helping people? He sure didn't become rich. He lived a simple life and helped thousands of people who were not able to be helped through standard medical treatment. Doctors made far more money than he did in his lifetime.

Yes. There is a large volume of testimony to the alleged accuracy of his "cures", and that seem to provide the main basis for belief in Cayce as a psychic. In fact, however, the support for his accuracy consists of little more than anecdotes and testimonials. The vague and disjointedly rambling nature of his predictions makes worse the fact that Cayce gave thousands upon thousands of readings, so he was bound to get a few right by accident. As with most "psychics," people remember the hits and forget the misses, especially those whose personal identity is firmly dependent on the delusional belief that a mere mortal could have god-like omniscience.

Cayce's claims were sufficiently ambiguous that it is unclear as to what he really meant, which leaves much of his claims open to interpretation. This "Weasel Wording" allowed even his most spectacular failures to be interpreted as a success in some way. Oftentimes, when his predictions indicated that a cancer would be found, and surgical intervention proved otherwise, his followers would declare that the absence of cancer during surgery did not mean that a tumor did not exist in the past, or that one would eventually appear in the future. The same held for his remote viewing and dowsing exhibitions - the blatant failures were termed successes by his followers merely because the claims could have been accurate under different circumstances.

Cayce's transcriptionist recorded most of these reading. His followers currently use as them "proof" of his predictive abilities. Unfortunately, these documents by themselves are worthless, because they provide no way of distinguishing what Cayce discerned by psychic ability from information provided to him by his assistants, by letters from patients, or by simple observation. Also these transcripts tell only what Cayce said, with no indication of what he said as being true. All claims made to back up Cayce's predictions were made by his followers or publicists, and many of those claims contradict each other for the same predictions! Not only was Cayce a fake and a fraud, but his followers have perpetuated the fraud since Cayce's death in 1945. To top it off, new predictions - allegedly made by Cayce - are constantly being "found" by his followers, and most if not all of these claims stand in stark contradiction to Cayce's original predictions!

Finally, although his name was indeed spelled "Cayce," it's pronounced "Casey."

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Magnus
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15 Mar 2009, 6:54 pm

I've read many of the actual cases and I've only heard of one person (client) who didn't believe his reading. There are far more people who would rather not look into the actual cases and just dismiss him altogether rather than do the actual research.

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Today on file at the Association for Research and Enlightenment, Inc. (A.R.E.), in Virginia Beach, Virginia, are copies of more than 14,000 of Edgar Cayce's readings. These are available to the public and have been filed along with any follow-up reports received from the individuals who had asked for the readings.

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The Readings

Edgar Cayce gave over 14,000 "readings" during a period of 43 years (1901 to 1944). These are trance discourses which Cayce revealed while in a hypnotic or "sleeping" state. While "awake" he claimed generally not to remember what he had said while "asleep". The readings themselves explain that the unconscious mind has access to information which the conscious mind does not -- a common theory about hypnosis in Cayce's time. Most records come from the period after 1925, when his secretary Gladys Davis recorded the readings, and his wife Gertrude Evans Cayce "conducted" (guided) the readings.

The readings are customarily divided into the following categories:

Physical Readings: 9,603 extant readings.
Otherwise known as "health readings" in which (typically) a patient would be diagnosed and a cure prescribed. For some reason Cayce needed to be told the patient's physical location, though this might easily be in another city or state (in the case of patients inquiring by letter). Cayce lore describes various incidental examples of clairvoyance in the course of Cayce's psychically "searching" for the patient.

Life Readings: 1,920 extant readings
In a life reading, Cayce describes the client's present physical, emotional and mental condition in terms of past life experience. Most inquirers were assigned past lives from about twelve main "periods" including Atlantis, ancient Egypt at the time of "Ra Ta", ancient Persia, Palestine at the time of Christ, and colonial America. A number of people were told of famous past lives. Cayce's son Hugh Lynn, for example, was told that he was the apostle Andrew.

Business Readings:
747 extant readings.Cayce occasionally gave business readings including advice on business partners, the stock market, business models, etc.

Dream Readings: 630 extant readings.
Edgar Cayce encouraged everyone to interpret and use his or her own dreams in day-to-day life. A dream reading involved Cayce interpreting the dreams of clients. As he did with readings on many subjects, Cayce would often interrupt the person reading the dream and give an interpretation before the dream had been completely read. He would sometimes fill in parts of dreams that the dreamer had supposedly forgotten. Unlike Jungian or Freudian dream interpretation, Cayce did not emphasize highly the importance of symbols. He said that every individual has his or her own unique symbols. Cayce claimed that in dreams people could receive valuable insight into their own lives and that the insight was always of use to the dreamer. Besides regular daily insight into one's life, he claimed people could communicate with loved ones dead or alive, remember past life experiences, see a possible future and experience many other psychic phenomena. He stated that these paranormal abilities were something anyone could learn.

Other Readings: 954 extant readings
Other Readings are miscellaneous subject matter that does not fit into an above category. The subject matter included missing persons, buried treasure, readings given to a spiritual development group, psychic abilities, auras, prophecy, structure of reality, geology and many other topics.

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15 Mar 2009, 7:57 pm

Magnus wrote:

That sounds like the voice of reason to me. :wink:

My views stem from the idea that you should not deny verified scientific fact, but too much skepticism of extraordinary claims ironically leads to trying to make mundane solutions fit, even when extraordinary evidence is present. Entire branches of science have emerged in this past century that scientists 300 years ago would of been dismissed as pure fantasy.

As for Edgar Cayce. I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that he had no extraordinary abilities. It's possible his brain worked in such a way that he honestly believed in himself (as he did shun fame and fortune), but since his predictions were either too vague to actually predict anything, or in some cases flat out wrong, I must conclude he did not have any abilities beyond the norm.

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15 Mar 2009, 8:42 pm

So far as Psychic Predictions go, I think of it this way: If you blindly throw a thousand darts at a dartboard, you are bound to hit the bulls eye at least a few times, but it is idiotic afterwords to claim you are a an excellent darts player.

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Magnus
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15 Mar 2009, 9:59 pm

How do you explain how Cayce gave accurate medical advice to patients who were unable to be helped through traditional medicine? He was scientifically illiterate during his conscious state, yet while in a trance he used medical terms as if he had studied medicine. I don't think he was a liar and I don't think his clients were liars. They didn't make money from being cured. Why would total strangers travel to meet him and then lie on his behalf that his advice worked?
If it was simply a placebo effect at work, that still provides some evidence of psi activity.

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15 Mar 2009, 10:08 pm

Magnus wrote:

As much as I'd like to, I refuse to touch on the point of Cayce's "advice" without going through his entire archive myself, which I know will never happen, but I don't argue on a point I know very little about. I will say though, I do not think the man was a liar, nor were his patients. I just believe he was very good at whatever it was he actually did

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Dussel
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15 Mar 2009, 10:54 pm

Magnus wrote:

How do you explain how Cayce gave accurate medical advice to patients who were unable to be helped through traditional medicine?

1) How reported this?
2) What is the ratio between correct and incorrect advice?
3) How does this related to nearby random advice?
4) Are all other explanations excluded?
5) Are there peer-reviewed sources of some reputation?

Fnord
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16 Mar 2009, 10:55 am

Magnus wrote:

How do you explain how Cayce gave accurate medical advice to patients who were unable to be helped through traditional medicine?

He didn't. It was pure coincidence that any of his advice correlated with a person's recovery. Edgar Cayce was no more of a healer than I am. If any real doctor had had as many real failures as Cayce, his license to practice would be taken away, and he'd not longer be allowed to practice medicine. There exists no real proof that Edgar Cayce ever healed anyone.

Magnus wrote:

He was scientifically illiterate during his conscious state, yet while in a trance he used medical terms as if he had studied medicine.

He could read. Even though Cayce didn't have a formal education much beyond grammar school, he was a voracious reader, worked in bookstores, and was especially fond of occult and osteopathic literature. This explains his in interest and knowledge is spiritualism and medicine - there was nothing "mystical" about it. He was entirely self-taught when it came to medical issues of his day.

Magnus wrote:

I don't think he was a liar and I don't think his clients were liars.

Delusional people don't deliberately lie, they just believe the lies they tell. You may think what you will, but don't feed me a plate of crap and call it a feast. His followers have been serving up dumploads of hot, steaming excrement since the early part of the last century, and most of it has nothing to do with what Cayce actually said or did, but only what they so desperately want to believe.

Magnus wrote:

They didn't make money from being cured.

This is how Edgar Cayce made his living - by selling his "predictive" and curative" services for money - mostly through "donations" and "gifts," but this was done in much the same way that modern-day religious leaders take up collections and "love gifts."

Magnus wrote:

Why would total strangers travel to meet him and then lie on his behalf that his advice worked?

Why would a total stranger who had been born long after he died lie on his behalf and perpetuate the fraud? Some people have a morbid need to believe in something greater than themsleves, be it sky-fairies, gnomes in the garden, or poorman prophets.

Magnus wrote:

If it was simply a placebo effect at work, that still provides some evidence of psi activity.

Not at all. A placebo is given to gullible patients for their imaginary problems so that they can believe that they have been treated. There is no "psi" involved, only the trading of one delusion for another, which is what Cayce was really all about.

Your man Cayce was an ordinary human being with an extra-ordianary talent to fool people, and you've been taken in.

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16 Mar 2009, 12:00 pm

Fnord, list all the patients that Cayce gave advice to in which they had been hurt or not helped by Cayce's advice. Then list the patients that were not helped or hurt by traditional medicine who were later cured by Cayce's advice. Statistical evidence doesn't lie. My intuition tells me that you haven't read anything from the direct source of Cayce's readings, but rather you pulled up some bunk blurb from some everything skeptic site.

Just because you can't understand it or explain it, it doesn't mean it's not real, or that it didn't happen. Worst of all, calling people fakes and frauds is not an ethical thing to do, especially when someone like Cayce who dedicated his life to helping people are made to look liars.
He accepted enough in donations to get by. He was not a wealthy man. He gave most of his money to charity and offered free services. There is nothing wrong for accepting money for doing a service. However, you paint him out to be some sort of charleton. I bet you make money for whatever service you perform. A standard doctor in his day made a much better living than he did in his lifetime, yet he did cure more patients than the typical doctor.
Read the real archives.

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16 Mar 2009, 12:16 pm

Magnus wrote:

The burden of prove is on your side! It like with any modern medicine: The inventor has to show that the medicine has an positive effect and not the the authorities that it doesn't.

Fnord
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16 Mar 2009, 12:36 pm

Magnus wrote:

Fnord, list all the patients that Cayce gave advice to in which they had been hurt or not helped by Cayce's advice...

No.

You asserted the positive claim, therefore the entire burden of proof is all upon you.

Magnus wrote:

Just because you can't understand it or explain it...

I understand delusion and fraud when I see it, and I explain it's longevity by the ignorance of Cayce's believers.

There is no valid evidence to support any positive claim about Cayce, that there is any such thing as "psi," any such thing as psychic ability, and any claims of Cayce's alleged psychic ability to heal or predict the future. You have failed to prove otherwise, remember? Do so, and you may have a case for Cayce.

Magnus wrote:

Read the real archives.

I have read the real archives - they're all claims (predictions) and no evidence (follow-up). There is nothing to Cayce's predictions that could not be obtained at random.

Again, prove first the existance of "psi," then the existance of any psychic ability, then the existence of psychic healing and/or ESP, and then you'll be standing on firm ground to prove your claims that Edgar Cayce was the Real Deal.

Until then, your claims regarding the existence of "psi," psychic abilities in general, psychic healing and ESP specifically, and Edgar Cayce's alleged psychic abilities are themselves invalid.

Lack of evidence invalidates any positive claim.

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16 Mar 2009, 1:21 pm

@Magnus: What would convince you that he was a fraud?

@Fnord: What would convince you that he was a real healer?

For me, if the cures, which he prescibed would turn out to be effective and efficient. If the raw side of a freshly skinned rabbit, still warm with blood, fur side out, placed on the breast heals cancer statistically significant(ly?). If his serum from the bloob of a rabbit helps against thyroid cancer, if animated ash helps against whatever he used it against... if most of his cures worked, I'd eat my words and state that he is a real healer.

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Fnord
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16 Mar 2009, 2:22 pm

LostInEmulation wrote:

@Fnord: What would convince you that he was a real healer?

1. Newsreal footage of actual, visible healings taking place under Mr. Cayce's touch, and without any other medical intervention. The obvious and visible regeneration of a missing limb under Mr. Cayce's direct influence would do nicely. Then, the film itself must be examined for tampering, special effects, anachronisms, or "camera tricks." Finally, the film and its contents must be vetted by recognized authorities on stage magic, medical treatment, film practices, the historical period, and general flim-flammery.

Remember, Edgar Cayce died in 1945, so evidence must take into account the available technology of the times. This includes medical practices, film techniques, and "magic" tricks.

2. Locate the exact statement uttered or written by Mr. Cayce that predicted any of the events in my life that no one else would know about, and that I've had to keep secret for reasons of filial piety, national security, or public outrage.

LostInEmulation wrote:

For me, if the cures, which he prescibed would turn out to be effective and efficient. If the raw side of a freshly skinned rabbit, still warm with blood, fur side out, placed on the breast heals cancer statistically significant(ly?). If his serum from the bloob of a rabbit helps against thyroid cancer, if animated ash helps against whatever he used it against... if most of his cures worked, I'd eat my words and state that he is a real healer.

Ditto. Extraordinary claims demand extrordinary proof.

Magnus
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16 Mar 2009, 5:33 pm

I don't have to prove anything to you. Why don't you just do the research yourself. Fnord, you are full of it because I know you haven't read the real archives. If you had done so, you would know that they have had sufficient follow-ups. I don't really care what anyone believes so it's not in my corner to educate anyone or prove anything. However, I do care when someone is being unjustly called a liar. He lived a decent and noble life and doesn't deserve to be painted in such a wrong light. He was a very simple man and very average in intelligence. However, when he went under a trance, he could see into people's bodies. He knew their ailments and it was very specific. He did this without even looking at the person. Very often he only knew the name and location of the "patient".

What would make me think Cayce's a fraud? I don't know. I've already been skeptical and my interest was piqued a long time ago. So, I've done a sufficient amount of research into his life and the lives of his "patients". I guess I already made up my mind. But at least I sincerely put in the time and effort of educating myself and playing devil's advocate in search of the truth.

It's fascinating how he operated from a trance state. If he was a fraud he would have allowed his friends and family to create a new religion in his name. However, he was very much against being seen as a prophet. He was averse to accepting any glory. He didn't live a lavish lifestyle, although he very well could have. His patients had no reason to lie. All of this makes him seem sincere and legit. Nothing he said ever seemed to be hurtful. He was a very moral man and what he spoke about was all good. So, if you ask me what would make me think he was a fraud now, I'd have to say that if all those people suddenly became ill and blamed it all on Cayce, I'd second guess everything again.

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16 Mar 2009, 6:20 pm

Magnus wrote:

I don't have to prove anything to you.

And we don't have to take your words seriously either.

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16 Mar 2009, 6:40 pm

He can have had the best intentions of all, but he himself could have been confused. He might have been the most sincere and honest person on this planet but that does not mean that his trance-visions have anything to do with reality.

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