atheism vs agnosicism

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claire-333
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25 Mar 2009, 8:05 pm

:lol: :wink:

ruveyn
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25 Mar 2009, 8:23 pm

I should state the obvious.

Consider two statements.

1. X believes there are no gods.
2. X does not believe there are gods.

This statements are quite distinct and different. 1 implies 2 but 2 does not imply 1.

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buryuntime
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25 Mar 2009, 8:34 pm

my favorite quote describing agnostics:

To chose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation'
[Life Of Pi - Yann Martell]

twoshots
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25 Mar 2009, 9:00 pm

buryuntime wrote:

To chose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation'
[Life Of Pi - Yann Martell]

/banal platitude

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DNForrest
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25 Mar 2009, 9:11 pm

buryuntime wrote:

my favorite quote describing agnostics:

To chose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation'
[Life Of Pi - Yann Martell]

Yes, because the only possible way to advance is to be closed minded.

greenblue
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25 Mar 2009, 9:12 pm

solinoure wrote:

if you are an athiest - then by virtue of your faith (i.e. that there is no god), you have gnosis of god - even if it is only the gnosis of his nonexistence.

the agnostic cannot have a gnosis of this 'nonexistence of god' - lest in taking the gnosis he becomes an athiest and ceases tobe an agnostic.

You can't be both.

well, the issue is that atheism, is defined as the lack of theism, in that sense, there are two distinctions, strong atheism, which is the one you are refering, and weak atheism, in which all form of nontheism would fall into that, including agnosticism, which is illustrated in the diagram Henriksson's posted, except for the term gnostic used there, which is a different thing.

The thing is that people often think of strong atheists when the simple term atheist is used, which would be part of what makes agnostics prefer to be identified with agnosticism rather than atheism, as that would be more especific relating to their views.

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greenblue
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25 Mar 2009, 9:51 pm

buryuntime wrote:

my favorite quote describing agnostics:

To chose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation'
[Life Of Pi - Yann Martell]

My favorite term describing certainty adherents is: self-delusion

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd". ~Voltaire

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twoshots
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25 Mar 2009, 10:37 pm

There was a member who used to spend some time here (Witt) who gave a characterization of the kinds of believe that I liked/found amusing:
An agnostic is someone who doesn't believe in God.
An atheist is someone who wants to not believe in God.

ruveyn wrote:

Well, that really depends on whether or not rejects the idea that one can neither believe nor disbelieve.

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twoshots
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25 Mar 2009, 10:45 pm

Fnord wrote:

Magnus wrote:

... but to say that they know anything about the mysteries of creation is just wishful thinking or delusion or plain old lying.

Many of us have realized that which creation theory - or creation myth, for that matter - is the most valid just does not really matter in the human context. We humans are just not capable of duplicating the creation event(s), even if creation has a true beginning, so it doesn't really matter at all how the universe came to be.

Whether or not something matters is not reducible to whether or not it can be reproduced or leveraged to one's advantage.

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Magnus
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25 Mar 2009, 10:51 pm

Quote:

Magnus wrote:
Atheism is the denial of religious fundamentalism ...

fnord wrote:
No, it's the denial of the existance of a god or gods. Atheists do not deny the existance of religion in any of its forms, but only the existance of those gods that the religions claim to be real. Again, lack of proof for claim means that the claim itself becomes irrelevant, and thus the claim can be ignored.

Whenever I hear atheists try to refute the existence of a Creator, they always use religious examples of how it is not possible that God exists. They don't provide any proof that it is impossible to have been created from something that is non-material or intangible for humans to grasp. You even said that atheists don't claim to know the origin of life and furthermore that they don't find it even worthy to investigate. Maybe that is just you though.

Fnord, if you think it's cool to whisper caribou barbie jokes to Claire like you're in some lame clique, you should go back to the third grade and learn how to spell "existence" before you claim to have all the inside knowledge on the subject.

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26 Mar 2009, 12:01 am

The function of any belief is how it affects behavior. Whether you claim there are no gods or that the existence of gods is unprovable, the behavior amounts to the same thing. As a pragmatic rule you ignore gods and that is what is important.

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26 Mar 2009, 3:07 am

claire333 wrote:

I once read a member write there is no such thing as an agnostic because a person cannot neither believe nor not believe. However, I find it to be the best way I have ever heard to describe it. I neither beleive nor not believe.

Apathist would be a more fitting term, then. Are you also agnostic towards Santa Claus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, i.e. do you believe in God? Do you believe in Santa Claus? Do you believe really believe in the Easter Bunny? "Dunno" is not a very good answer.

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greenblue
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26 Mar 2009, 10:04 am

I do believe in the Eastern Bunny and Santa Claus is very real, I have flown with him around the globe.

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26 Mar 2009, 10:16 am

Magnus wrote:

Whenever I hear atheists try to refute the existence of a Creator, they always use religious examples of how it is not possible that God exists. They don't provide any proof that it is impossible to have been created from something that is non-material or intangible for humans to grasp. You even said that atheists don't claim to know the origin of life and furthermore that they don't find it even worthy to investigate. Maybe that is just you though.

That's because it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something, since the process would first require proof that the something once existed, and now does not - taking us right back to the claim of existence; which, if not proven, is irrelevant and can easily be ignored.

Magnus wrote:

Fnord, if you think it's cool to whisper caribou barbie jokes to Claire like you're in some lame clique, you should go back to the third grade and learn how to spell "existence" before you claim to have all the inside knowledge on the subject.

Ooo ... jealous? :mrgreen:

You don't like the fact that Claire and I can share a joke? Is that why you follow me from thread to thread, trying to impose your fantasy beliefs on me? :roll:

Do you really want me to submit to your will and allow you to dictate what I will and will not post? Is that it?

:lol:

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26 Mar 2009, 10:25 am

Henriksson wrote:

i.e. do you believe in God? Do you believe in Santa Claus? Do you believe really believe in the Easter Bunny? "Dunno" is not a very good answer.

As for "Dunno" being a good answer, it IS a good and acceptable answer as well as the position of atheism and theism, and, wether you agree with agnosticism or not, that's another issue and a matter of perspective, but you can't deny people can be agnostic, I mean concluding people can't be that, is an error, and it seems that it has very much to do with favoring a biased position about the issue and, apparantely, a great deal of reductionism, which is problematic.

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Fnord
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26 Mar 2009, 10:52 am

"I don't know" is inadmissable only in a military or dictatorial context. Otherwise, it's as valid as "No" or "Yes."

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