Creationists and science

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Personally I don't have a problem saying that garden gnomes hid my keys. Except that I have zero empirical evidence to back that up; I'm just pulling the easiest-to-reach fairy tale out of the imagination of humans to explain something I don't otherwise have an explanation for.

And, since my belief is not based in science or logic or reason but in my own personal imagination and wishful thinking, I'm not going to lobby congress that they must teach in school science classes that missing keys can just as likely be garden gnomes as the result of misplacing one's keys.

Good show... no, I really mean it, good show...

Now keep your arguments aimed specifically at creationists instead of hitting all religion in the process... religious people such as myself that accept scientific discoveries as fact are probably your only defense against the irrational conservative christians... We have the added benefit of being able to make the conservative hacks look not just dumb (they can do that themselves), but also hypocritical to their own message...

But what is the point of making conservative religious people feel dumb? It doesn't change their beliefs at all. They are not religious out of logic or clear thinking. They are religious because thinking is irrelevant to them.

Actually I'm not anti-religious, I'm Zen Buddhist but have an avid interest in science. I want to know "what really is". I want facts, facts and more facts, not religious make believe. If I have a belief that science shows to be a fallacy then I discard the belief. To do any other is irrational. To me Zen works on a similar principle to science - inspection and discovery of what is, except it is done in respect to ones-self and consciousness.

I think the conservative Christians are a lost cause. Too engulfed in their own world of make-believe to even want to truly understand the universe and what really makes it tick.

People like you make me think a bit better about religion, Tallyman.

I'm actually fascinated by Zen Buddhism, especially on the philosophical grounds... I've heard plenty of theories (though none confirmed) that a good deal of the Gospel of Matthew (especially the lessons on how to live your life) were actually the result of what Christian theology does best: steal from other religions... in this case, Buddhism...


That is where we disagree... I think that a good majority of conservative Christians can be redeemed... maybe not the leaders, but the sheeple that follow them... The first step is to expose the conservative extremist theology as the fraud that it is, even by Christian standards... After they accept that God expresses open-mindedness and love and not close-minded hate, they become more amenable to rational thought and the scientific method...

I've heard some contemporary teachers quote a number of statements made by Jesus along Buddhist or Advaita lines... "The kingdom of God is within you" etc. However, I don't put much credence in such claims as the original statements could be interpreted in any number of ways.



I agree about the sheeple. It begins in school. I've read that even science itself is demonised by some American school boards! If kids are effectively taught to dismiss science as the work of the devil or of the dreaded atheists then they are likely to remain ill-informed and scientifically illiterate.

I was thinking more along the lines of "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword", "If anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give him your cloak as well", and other related teachings...


In keeping with my personal belief that science and religion should be kept entirely separate, these types of actions are quite appalling to me...

Why do you think religion and science are seperate matters?

There is science in Christianity. It helps us to figure out things in the world and evidence of God that things didn't happen by accident and God was the one that did it all.

So yes they can go together.

Not actual science - that's pseudoscience that does that.

Because religion is not scientific... technically it makes no claim to be scientific (the creationists try to make it scientific but that is just stupid)... you of all people should appreciate that statement...

What I disagree with you on is that there is still a place for non-scientific endeavors in a scientific world...

More like science is what we have that's rock steady, therefore good peer-reviewed science is something we can all agree on. Many an atheist would see the advance of science as the god of the gaps melting away into nothingness, many theists would see the advance of science as something that also advances the accuracy of their concept of who God really is and it may lend to them as reflected off of that deeper and more profound interpretations of what their faith is all about. I guess you could consider the new-earth folks as exempt from that argument but I don't think their carrying the torch for analysis and theistic reason so much as they're carrying the torch for the faith uber alis camp.

Qualitative analysis will almost always be outside of that realm. Just like you have news anchors and you have opinion and editorial people; once a person takes the science and facts and starts applying any degree of their own interpretation of them in regard to what they mean in a broader sense - they're leaving the world of objectivity in that regard and letting intuition take the reigns. This whole forum - politics, philosophy, and religion, is far more about intuition as most people don't have the time to read every bit of everything under the sun; we don't have enough time in the day, enough mental energy, so even choosing who we see as credible - also an intuitive act.

This is why I tend to think that some people's desire to treat philosophy or any critical thought on metaphysics as detailing, contorting, and over-complicating delusion just on the vary nature of accepting the possibility that us, here, and now may not be all that there is; its a bit bullheaded. I can understand people choosing to say that they personally think its far more likely than not that no deity, no afterlife, etc. exists but them perpetually even kicking agnostics because their that sure of themselves; doesn't add up logically. A person's more than welcome and more than in their right to hate bigotry, oppression, any social injustice that they may feel certain people inflict upon the world but those issues are specifically those issues.

Anything that can be observed is science.

there's actually more than just observation to science i reckon ^.- observation is only the first step.