I'm not going to post in PPR anymore

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Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:10 pm

McTell wrote:

Zoonic wrote:

Mixed race people with one european parent are european, of course. I know many born in Sweden who have one parent from Sweden or another western european country and another one from Asia, the middle-east or someplace. I consider them europeans.

Turks are not europeans in my oppinion. Russians are "eurasians" if you ask me but many might disagree.

My vision however, is a Fortress Europe consisting mainly of traditional western, central european and southern states with no non-european immigration except in the case of those who marry a european and adapt to european society. I don't want non-european immigrants to exist in large-scale within the borders of Europe.

What of, for example, France's overseas territories? In your vision, do they count as part of Europe?

Yes they count as part of France and I think colonized people who are still colonized (not those who are independent ex-colonies) should be able to immigrate under controlled forms.

Last edited by Zoonic on 19 May 2009, 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:11 pm

silentbob15 wrote:

I may not agree with the mods here, but in this case I think you deserve all the attention they can give you.

Because I dislike your country and culture and would rather die than be a citizen of it? I laugh in the face of those who are naive enough to think asperger transcends culture and nationality.

I have something else to relate to, in fact, because I'm gay. Being gay does NOT in any way transcend culture or nationality and to me AS is no different.

Last edited by Zoonic on 19 May 2009, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

McTell
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19 May 2009, 2:27 pm

Zoonic wrote:

Yes they count as part of France and I think colonized people who are still colonized (not those who are independent ex-colonies) should be able to immigrate under controlled forms.

But these overseas territories are not exactly of traditional European culture. So allowing them to immigrate to Europe proper would be little different to allowing non-European people in (it would certainly be no different to allowing a person from a former French colony in).

~

I have to say I've not been reading your other posts, so please forgive me for asking two questions which you have probably already addressed: Why do you wish to ban, almost completely, immigration? Are you also against holiday-makers or business people from non-Europe coming into Europe?

Zoonic wrote:

Because I dislike your country and culture and would rather die than be a citizen of it?

What's wrong with Canada?

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:30 pm

McTell wrote:

Zoonic wrote:

Yes they count as part of France and I think colonized people who are still colonized (not those who are independent ex-colonies) should be able to immigrate under controlled forms.

I'm not against business people or holiday makers, no. The reason why I want to ban non-european immigration is to preserve european culture and not make us blend with middle-easterners, africans or latinos too much.

About the oversea colonies. If you keep colonies, giving those people the right to immigrate is a price you have to pay I'd say. At least if you call yourself democratic. Former colonies is a totally different thing. When they gained their independence they also gave up their right to immigrate, if you ask me.

Best thing would be if no one kept colonies. They were first established to rob and steal anyway. There's no point in it today if you aren't a fascist nation.

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:34 pm

McTell wrote:

What's wrong with Canada?

I didn't check where Alberta was, I just assumed it was because I criticized american culture that he disliked me.

It's true Canada doesn't spread junk food franchises around the world, drop atomic bombs over civilians, single-handedly crash the world economy and occupy countries thousands of miles from home. So, no I don't really mind that country. It's not full of evangelic priests selling healing to homosexuality and quackers selling self-help solutions to AS for easy unethical profit either. And they were one of the first countries to legalize gay unions with the same status as heterosexual ones.

Henriksson
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19 May 2009, 2:41 pm

Zoonic wrote:

If that's what so-called 'European' culture is about, I say it can go screw itself. We are one people in one world, and I for one will do all in my power to make people realize that.

Quote:

About the oversea colonies. If you keep colonies, giving those people the right to immigrate is a price you have to pay I'd say. At least if you call yourself democratic. Former colonies is a totally different thing. When they gained their independence they also gave up their right to immigrate, if you ask me.

Pitcairn Islands - OK
Tuvalu - Not OK

Er, hmm...

Quote:

Best thing would be if no one kept colonies. They were first established to rob and steal anyway. There's no point in it today if you aren't a fascist nation.

But weren't you intending to be a fascist nation anyway?

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McTell
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19 May 2009, 2:45 pm

Zoonic wrote:

But visiting business people and holidaymakers will bring their country's culture with them (I'm thinking this is especially true of business people bringing over their foreign wares and ideas). Any visiting foreign person will. So if we want to preserve this "culture" then we shall have to bar foreigners altogether.

All this is assuming that we want to preserve culture anyway. Why should it be pickled? What is so awesome about European culture that it cannot be improved by foreign influence? (I'm not being a cultural relativist here)

Then there is a problem I have: I'm not even sure what culture actually is. I have a vague idea, but we could be thinking of two very different things when we talk about culture.

gina-ghettoprincess
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19 May 2009, 2:45 pm

I disagree with nationalism, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed those opinions.

Zoonic, exactly which WP rule was cited by the mod who warned you?

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Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:46 pm

Henriksson wrote:

But weren't you intending to be a fascist nation anyway?

One of the basic principles of fascism is conflict. Infighting between the classes is abolished in favor of a greater good which is seeing the state as an organical being in constant struggle with other states/cultures etc. Colonization is a natural part of fascism, as well as nationalism.

Personally I believe in a less imperialistic and more pacifist and shut off society. Kind of like China before the brits gutted it open with opium smuggling and aggression war, or Japan before the americans threatened them with opening up or being attacked. I believe in strong borders and controlled trade but not in small nations. That's why I want the traditionally western part of Europe to become federal.

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:47 pm

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:

I disagree with nationalism, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed those opinions.

Zoonic, exactly which WP rule was cited by the mod who warned you?

To not express myself negatively about cultures or nations because it can be seen as insulting by individuals from those countries.

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:48 pm

McTell wrote:

Zoonic wrote:

Trading culture is okay. It's just natural and healthy, but moving large groups of people and having them living by their original culture in a foreign place is damaging if you ask me.

Even strong anti-immigration countries like Japan depended on cultural trading for a long time.

McTell
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19 May 2009, 2:52 pm

Zoonic wrote:

To not express myself negatively about cultures or nations because it can be seen as insulting by individuals from those countries.

I think it might have been the way you were expressing yourself, rather than the ideas themselves you were expressing.

~

Zoonic wrote:

Trading culture is okay. It's just natural and healthy, but moving large groups of people and having them living by their original culture in a foreign place is damaging if you ask me.

I guess I'm obliged to ask you since you offered: Why do you think it is damaging?

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:54 pm

McTell wrote:

Zoonic wrote:

To not express myself negatively about cultures or nations because it can be seen as insulting by individuals from those countries.

I think it might have been the way you were expressing yourself, rather than the ideas themselves you were expressing.

An example of this would be:

Zoonic wrote:

Because I dislike your country and culture and would rather die than be a citizen of it?

Okay, I'm going to try to cleanse myself of all personal emotion and become a true robot who just expresses the oppinions completely devoid of personality.

Zoonic
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19 May 2009, 2:56 pm

McTell wrote:

I guess I'm obliged to ask you since you offered: Why do you think it is damaging?

Because entire societies turn into criminal cesspools, like the swedish city of Malmö, when too large groups of immigrants clash culturally with the native culture.

Most hate crimes against gay people in Sweden are commited by middle-eastern immigrants but the media prefer to report about those commited by neo-nazis only.

hyder13
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19 May 2009, 3:10 pm

Do you want an isolated Europe because you are gay and Islamic immigrants bash you for it? Do you hate/dislike all immigrants or just the Muslim ones? And you do realize that even if Europe were to isolate itself that many Eastern Euros are as anti-gay as the Middle East. In your fortress Europe scenario would white immigrants from Argentina be allowed to migrate in? Is this a racial ideal as well or just a xenophobic one...
And just out of curiousity what percentage of Sweden is actually made up of Swedes or Samis?

McTell
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19 May 2009, 3:12 pm

Zoonic wrote:

Okay, I'm going to try to cleanse myself of all personal emotion and become a true robot who just expresses the oppinions completely devoid of personality.

I'm pretty sure there's a middle stance between those two extremes, but the whole issue with the warning is none of my business anyway.

Zoonic wrote:

Do you think the best way to prevent this problem would be to bar foreigners?

I'm not sure it would be, when there are alternatives which, although not likely to come about in full, are I feel more likely than your vision of Fortress Europe. One possibility would be education promoting cross-culture awareness. I can imagine you might think this too expensive and too impractical, but your scenario, too, is expensive and impractical. So, since it looks to me like we are allowed in this thread to let our fantasies run free in envisioning a solution (and I do not mean that in a pejorative sense), I'm going to put that one forward because I like it better than your one.

hyder13 wrote:

you do realize that even if Europe were to isolate itself that many Eastern Euros are as anti-gay as the Middle East.

Eastern Europeans? There are many people from all places who are homophobic. I know many homophobes. Britain, for one, is filled with homophobes.

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