On School Prayer and the Pledge

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There are Christian groups actively petitioning to re-institute School prayer. There are also schools in the US that still enforce school prayer despite it's legal status. It does still exist, and if we don't speak out against it, it could make an even bigger comeback. It's not that Atheists are "whining" about it, it's that we're speaking out about what we believe in, that schools should live up to their responsibilities outlined by federal law.

It's not just Atheists either, it's people off many non-Christian faiths as well, since school prayer, whether officially allowed or not, is usually exclusively Christian oriented.

As far as the Pledge of Allegiance, in a country which was founded primarily for the purpose of abolishing state religion, I personally do not feel that anybody should be considered any less patriotic for not believing in a deity. My Atheism does not mean that I love my country any less than a Christian, and since "under god" wasn't placed in the pledge to imply that, it should be removed.

The reference to God in the pledge was put there as part of anti-communist propaganda. Despite the large numbers of Christians in the former Soviet Union, the US media labeled them as "Godless communists" to try and cover up any reason to look at these people as being similar to us, and because of that, they added "one nation under god" to the pledge to try and say that theistic Americans are better people.

Now, there is no more Soviet Union, Russia is an ally, and the piece in the pledge which was put there to go along with anti-Soviet propaganda is no longer serving it's purpose. Instead, the only purpose that phrase is serving today is to give Christians the untrue idea that this country was founded on Christian principals, or that it was intended only for Christians. Atheists have to put up with a lot of BS in this country at the hands of people who don't believe that we should even be allowed to live here, and use that phrase from the pledge to justify their beliefs.

George H.W. Bush, the president before Clinton, was even quoted as saying "I don't believe that Atheists should even be considered citizens, much less patriotic". This is interesting, since I currently have two Atheist cousins in Iraq right now, and despite them being prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for their country, there's a huge amount of people in this country including a former president that believe that they shouldn't even be considered citizens. This absolutely sickens me.

And this is why Atheists speak out against state-sponsored religion, because the USA is our country too, we work jobs, we pay taxes, we sing the star spangled banner and get teary-eyed, and we fight and die for this country just like everybody else, so why shouldn't we deserve to be entitled to the pursuit of happiness just like everybody else?

To be fair, George H W Bush denies ever saying that and there is only anectdotal evidence he ever did.

I would oppose them.


That's a rather novel interpretation of the American Revolution, and you'd have to put up a hell of a justification for such a claim. Given that state religion was not listed as a grievance against British rule (rather, lack of legislative and administrative autonomy and taxation were more emphasized) I don't see any evidence to support the idea that abolishing state religion was a primary motive for the American Revolution, or indeed that it was even a minor factor.

As far as the Pledge, I'm pretty apathetic. I'd be fine with taking "under God" out of it, but I'm honestly not a fan of the Pledge anyways, with or without the reference to God.

The good thing about atheists IMO is that I realize there are some very humorous people living in certain places of the U.S. - people even I as somewhat of a theist could maybe humor or laugh off one at a time but to be elbow deep in them to where they have the power to dictate my life with hammerheaded reasoning; I couldn't handle it. I think people of faith need to really examine their metaphysical claims, trim the fat off, and it seems like atheists - while I believe that they'll never expunge theism - they'll make it lean and trim rather than it being the obese sloth/glutton that it intellectually remains in so many corners of the world.

Aye! Aye!

Why do you care? Last I checked, Supreme Court ruling > petition. They have exactly zero chance of succeeding in America.

I can see the argument against the pledge, but why not just get rid of it altogether? The only purpose it has is to instill patriotic feeling -- I know it hasn't ever worked on me, I doubt it works on anyone else either.

I'm not too concerned with those petitioning for it, I'm more concerned with local governments passing bills to legalize it despite the federal law. 15 states legalized the medicinal use of Cannabis despite it being federally prohibited, I myself am not opposed to the medicinal use of Cannabis, my point is that federal laws aren't always followed by city and state governments.

I'm more concerned with the school systems which still conduct mandatory school prayer despite the federal law.

What's more important here is my issue of how when the majority wants something, it's considered a good cause, but when the minority wants something, they're considered bitchy.

A federal prohibition is somewhat different from well-established Constitutional law bolstered by numerous Supreme Court rulings. The latter will be taken more seriously.

Can you name one?

we aren't whining, we are just making sure it doesn't start up again! I lost count of the amount of BS that is spewed saying we should, like how all the bad things in the world will mystically stop if we pray in schools. If anyone bothered to check their history, the writer of the pledge was pissed when under god was almost added and fought tooth and nail to keep it out. Contrany to what is said, this is NOT a Christian nation! The is actaully a decline in the number of christians and I think for an excellent reason. One of the scare tactics I keep hearing is teaching of gay stuff during sex ed or teaching kids that gay relationships are okay. Now, tell me how that is "moral" when someone says you can't teach kids stuff they need to learn? Or take creationism, the largest load of nonsense ever! A federal judge even said it was nonsense!

Hardesty Oklahoma

My next question was going to be 'why haven't you sued them?', but apparently they were sued. The case was settled, and the settlement prohibited discussing the details, but according to atheists of america, it was settled to their satisfaction.

This sort of thing doesn't fly, like I said.

I don't have the money to sue for stuff like that, hell, I can't even afford to get my transmission flushed right now. But the question wasn't asking ME why I complain, the question was why do atheists as a whole, typically complain about these things, and the reason should be obvious.

What I find interesting is the double standard, the way that Christians complain about all kinds of things, yet since they have the masses, nobody listens to them. When Atheists complain, since there's fewer of us, we get called bitchy whiners. it all comes down to that the Christians think they're entitled to their pursuit of happiness, and that nobody else matters. For Atheists, it's either speak out, or be oppressed.

You're too good for that country. Move to Europe instead.

That's one of the things I mentioned - certain Christians seem to feel they are being oppressed when they are prevented from oppressing others - such as when courts allow gay marriage.

First of all, I would never pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth, and consider it stupid to do so.

Next we are pledging our allegiance to the republic "the United States of America." Well, I could do that now, but while Bush was President I couldn't, because I couldn't pledge my allegiance to a republic that was murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, torturing others, and spying on its own citizens. My allegiance will only be pledged to a nation whose government is operating in a moral way.

Next we are acknowledging the existence of a God. I certainly won't do that!

Then we get this "with freedom and justice for all" BS... the author must've been eating the magic mushrooms when he wrote that... what fantasy land was he in?