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Henriksson
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29 May 2009, 4:43 pm

KarmicPyxis wrote:
I'm a hippie (ie non materialist, pacifistic-leaning socialist) atheist...so...I guess that makes me the worst of the worst, eh? :wink: Not to mention the fact that consumerism/materialism are very much Western concepts birthed into the world by hardcore JudeoChristian types. Atheistic hippies like me just roll our eyes, throw our hands up in the air at the hopelessness of "fixing" it all, and drop out of society altogether! 8)

Not to mention...I think the original question is loaded with so many nonsequiturs and "wife beating" questions that it is impossible to answer without consenting to some ridiculous notion or another.

Hey...lookit! I just killed another five minutes of my Antarctica tour by answering this post! Woo-hoo :wtg:

I agree with you up to a certain point, but I'm one of the 'hippies' who think society can be fixed. :wink:


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ruveyn
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29 May 2009, 9:12 pm

Henriksson wrote:
I agree with you up to a certain point, but I'm one of the 'hippies' who think society can be fixed. :wink:


Societies can and have been changed but they are rarely ever "fixed". Human nature will manifest itself, no matter what. The Darkness of Man comes from Within.

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Dussel
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30 May 2009, 12:00 am

philosopher wrote:
Is the view of the athiest that there is nothing else than chemical and electical reactions in the brain and all on offer is the aquisition of wealth and children leading to much happiness.


Not really - if you understand that happiness is primary something which happens within your brain, you can archive this with relative low material means.

You may have a look into the writings of Epicurus, an early materialistic philosopher, how saw happiness as the main goal of live, but also denied that consumption above a certain point would lead to more happiness. The acquisition of e.g. a new car does not provide necessarily more happiness than e.g. a modest meal with some friends.

philosopher wrote:
Consumerism has led to a increadibly unjust world there is no golden age to invoke but why cant we return closer to the land the current economic crisis has proved greed and self interest dont benefit anyone ...


Greed and self interest is not the same.

There is a point of wealth which is necessary for happiness: To have a decent medical service, a room or place for your own, enough decent food, some wine, access to knowledge, etc. When this point is reached, accumulating more wealth does not lead to more happiness.

"Consumerism" lies, because it based on the idea that you buy happiness (sexual attraction, status, etc) by buying xyz-product. But for the most people with limited financial means this means to sacrifice time and effort to get the money to buy it, which means you exchange the real possibility to be happy for the wage promise to have some happiness attached to an product.

An whole industry is build on this - beer companies do advertise their beer, but good friends; car companies do not advertise a means of transport, but high social status; cornflake companies do not advertise cornflakes, but to have a happy family; clothing companies do advertise cloths, but freedom; etc. etc. pp.

---

A well understood materialistic world view is the anti-thesis to "Consumerism".



Gromit
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30 May 2009, 1:08 pm

philosopher wrote:
Perhaps spiritualism opposes both to quote someone man can not live on bread alone.

If that is the only link between materialism in the philosophical sense and materialism in the sense of consumerism then your original question is totally on the wrong track. Atheism is unrelated to the pursuit of happiness through material wealth. Does that put your mind at rest?



LostInEmulation
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30 May 2009, 1:50 pm

First of all: There is nothing bad with consumerism. Think of the fact that people in third world nations want to work in sweatshops since other jobs are worse. Hating consumerism is a modern guilt which is piled on humanity. What we do need is IMHO to make environmental factors play into the costs more. That way, the negative effects on the environment would be a thing of the past.

Second: Philosophical materialism is not the kind of materialism, you referred to. There is again nothing wrong with seeing humans as a complex pattern of atoms.

Third: I distrust anyone who tells me to be less needy and less greedy and instead live more... 'in tune with nature/deity/gaia/whatever'. While some people might believe that, others are hypocrits who do it to seed guilt and gain control over people. Yes, capitalism causes crises, no, crises happened earlier as well!

Fourth: Happiness is not the sum of all your toys, but being constantly deprived of them does not cause more happiness. I would refer to the song 1000 Gründe here, but it is in German. What I mean is: if happiness was independent of these luxuries, people in the GDR wouldn't ask their FRGan relatives to send them stuff.


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