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waltur
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13 Nov 2010, 5:29 pm

@vince: you mean "atheist" doesn't mean you're a communist nazi who worships "Atheismo?"

@inuyasha: no really, though.... you seem to be missing the point that atheism isn't a belief. it's the lack of a belief. i like to refer to myself as an "asantist" because i don't believe in santa. would i be wrong to guess that you are also asantist? do you require "faith" to reject the assertion that chris angel can actually fly? i hope not.

you're mislabeling the problem, though. it's not that atheism is a threat to freedom. it's that atheism always leads to war with the otters.

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Jookia
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13 Nov 2010, 5:58 pm

I think it's safe to say that Atheism is not a threat to freedom as it can't be. It's a lack of belief.



ruveyn
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13 Nov 2010, 7:10 pm

Jookia wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Atheism is not a threat to freedom as it can't be. It's a lack of belief.



The Jesus-Christers are hostile toward atheism for exactly that reason. Since the atheist lacks faith, he (according to the Jesus-Christers) is capable of descending to the depth of depravity. You typical Jesus-Christer cannot conceive that a person could have good ethics purely on the basis of practical reason.

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Sand
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13 Nov 2010, 7:22 pm

Although in general I would agree with the concept that atheism directly has no fundamental connection with Marxism it must be considered that Christianity does have an underlying world view that justice can be comfortably postponed for the final after death judgment of a deity. In this it has great similarities to the belief in karma where justice is an automatic action of something fundamental in the universe.
Capitalism is notorious in its gross mistreatment of the lower classes and Christianity as a working theory as applied by the huge church hierarchy has been used by both the pre-capitalist feudalism and by the capitalist elite to suppress the tendencies of the oppressed classes to revolt against their bad treatment on the proposal that all evil doers will, in the end, be punished by the judgment of God. In the Soviet system the religious hierarchy was suppressed because of its support for the capitalist masters. The cooperation of the Catholic hierarchy with the Nazis and with Franco well past WWII is a clear indication of Catholic alliance with the fascist and capitalist forces to suppress and control revolt against economic mistreatment. On a purely theological basis theism-atheism has no economic functions but in historical context theism demonstrates a very strong economic alliance with capitalist elites.

To go back even further in theological mythology the tossing out of Adam and Eve from Eden because of their desire for knowledge is an underlying motivation in religions to keep people in ignorance and not to grasp the opportunities offered by understanding the world in preference to the acceptance of total obedience to a super power - the power of the priesthood in alliance with the aristocrats or whatever elite was in control. Religion is strongly based on ignorance and unquestioning faithful compliance to the power in control.



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13 Nov 2010, 7:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Jookia wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Atheism is not a threat to freedom as it can't be. It's a lack of belief.



The Jesus-Christers are hostile toward atheism for exactly that reason. Since the atheist lacks faith, he (according to the Jesus-Christers) is capable of descending to the depth of depravity. You typical Jesus-Christer cannot conceive that a person could have good ethics purely on the basis of practical reason.

ruveyn


I agree but still, I find this topic answered. I'ma leave.



Fuzzy
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13 Nov 2010, 8:02 pm

Marxism is concerned about (and opposed to) rival physical organizations. It is opposed to society being influenced by anything but the marxists. Whether there is or isnt a god behind a religion in question is moot to marxists: it is the social control of churches that they are interested in eliminating. Marxism doesnt concern itself with the existence of god(s). It just doesnt care.

Marxism seeks to control social structure, so it makes sense that earthly religious organizations have to go. That is, it is antithetical to religious systems, not atheist. That is probably a fine point lost on a god noggin'd person.

If Jesus had appeared in red square, the soviets would have shot him and went about their business as normal. If its in the way of their goals, they removed it.


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ruveyn
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13 Nov 2010, 8:17 pm

Jookia wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Atheism is not a threat to freedom as it can't be. It's a lack of belief.


Be more precise. It is a lack of belief in the existence of the current mainline god. Many atheists have beliefs pertaining to other issues than the existence or non-existence of god.

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Sand
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13 Nov 2010, 9:17 pm

It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.



ruveyn
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13 Nov 2010, 9:24 pm

Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


Religion is a threat to reason which makes it an indirect threat to liberty.

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13 Nov 2010, 9:51 pm

Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom



91
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13 Nov 2010, 10:21 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:
Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom


Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....


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Sand
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13 Nov 2010, 11:23 pm

91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom


Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....


It's pretty obvious that people who are dead are not free.



imbatshitcrazy
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13 Nov 2010, 11:42 pm

91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom


Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....


you're saying that the crusades, salem witch hunts, etc. were acts of religious tolerance and freedom?



91
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14 Nov 2010, 12:03 am

imbatshitcrazy wrote:
91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom


Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....


you're saying that the crusades, salem witch hunts, etc. were acts of religious tolerance and freedom?


They are existence proofs that Christians can stand against freedom; but not sufficient grounds to suppose that they will.


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Sand
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14 Nov 2010, 12:09 am

91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom


Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....


you're saying that the crusades, salem witch hunts, etc. were acts of religious tolerance and freedom?


They are existence proofs that Christians can stand against freedom; but not sufficient grounds to suppose that they will.


And by that an indication, at minimum, that Christianity itself can be assumed irrelevant in the defense of freedom. On the other side it seems evident that Christianity in these situations was the motivation to attack freedom.



91
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14 Nov 2010, 1:20 am

Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
91 wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
Sand wrote:
It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.


very true, religion IS a threat to freedom


Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....


you're saying that the crusades, salem witch hunts, etc. were acts of religious tolerance and freedom?


Using your logic no one could. Name me one pure ideology?

They are existence proofs that Christians can stand against freedom; but not sufficient grounds to suppose that they will.


And by that an indication, at minimum, that Christianity itself can be assumed irrelevant in the defense of freedom. On the other side it seems evident that Christianity in these situations was the motivation to attack freedom.


Ha. There were plenty of free people chopping other free peoples heads off during the French Revolution. Using your logic I could dismiss Freedom as being irrelevant to the defense of Freedom.


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