Mandatory abortions in case of rape

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it is reasonable for the latest stages of the fetus, for the earliest it does have its problems,
as sourced before the earliest points where there is evidence of complex neuron patterns similar to a full grown person is about 20 weeks and that was essentially only a heavy sleep state they discovered, when your brain is at that point you would effectively be unconsciouss, the neocortex actually seperates itself from outside influences duing this phase of sleep, to my understanding.

Last edited by Oodain on 20 Mar 2011, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You continually miss the point. An unborn fetus and a new born human infant has one third the brain mass required to be a human person. Not enough brain, not enough neural interconnect. The brain of a human infant grows at a tremendously fast rate after birth and by the time it is 4 - 6 months old it has enough brain mass and interconnection to begin to do what persons do, which is be aware of itself, and grasp the rudiments of identifying the world outside their skin. By the time a baby is a year old it has the beginnings of language (and therefor reason) and is most certainly a person, but a rather inexperienced person. Young humans learn at a tremendously fast rate and by the time a human youngster is five (assuming normal physical development) it has all of "its marbles", it has reason, it has language. It is a person.

Acorns are not oak trees and fetuses are not persons.

ruveyn

Yes, I think the personage issue is not clearly defined and will always remain an open question; it is subject to the context of the definition a person uses in describing a fetus. For instance if one considers a baby a person by its ability to socially interact they might apply that same definition to a fourteen week old fetus based on this new limited research. On the other hand for one that considers a certain level of brain development a requirement for personhood that might be their defining context. So, really it depends on who you talk to.

Kind of like the definition of God. Some people who believe in a natural God might consider themselves Atheist and some people who believe in a natural God might consider themselves theist. The defining context here is does a theist have to believe in the Abrahamic God. That is also an open question. Opinions vary.

You actually can't say that for certain, a lot of pruning of existing brain cells also takes place. Furthermore just answer my question, is what I'm suggesting a fair test of your ability.



So now we're comparing humans to being oak trees, cute.

Fact of the matter is there is an explosion of brain cells when one is extremely young so you can rapidly take in information and can learn how to talk among other things. That is why it is a lot easier for a toddler to pick up multiple languages than it is for an adult. Other things can partially be drawn up to also issues of lack of experience. Remember I pointed out the lack of a frame of reference:

Would you know what an apple was if you had never seen one nor even seen a picture of an apple?

They posess counciousness still.



uhhh, and about me being in this thread,hmmm.I can see what me in here is going to turn into, haha *stepping out before bricks start flying*

So do earthworms and field mice. So what?

ruveyn

so do you...

so what????


u all have fun talking.I already said Im stepping out cause as I said, I have too much of an objective mind to stay here.I dont take sides in this and this thread seems to be all about that, so Im going to leave it to you all.have fun.,



oh and to bring it down to all hardcore,
we're all a pis* in the universe to begin with...
its all relative.

Last edited by FunnyFairytale on 20 Mar 2011, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Human women do not give birth to earthworms and field mice...

Again answer my question about the test I am proposing, would it be a fair test of your cognitive ability?

I would say that an dog fetus is 'canine,' but not necessarily that it is 'a dog.' Certainly not that it is a puppy, which is probably what Inuyasha would call it.



I think more work is required before it can be said that the fetus is 'interacting socially.' To me, interaction requires an awareness that there is another being there, not merely 'something unlike the rest of the environment.' The research is definitely interesting, but definitely not proof.

I will pose the same question to you LKL.

I wouldn't know what an apple was, but I would have the ability to learn what an apple was. The processing of my brain as I explored the topic would be recognizable as an 'awake, thinking mammal' on an EEG an as a 'human thinking about shape and/or food,' depending on the description I was given of an apple, on an fMRI. Shown a human face, I would recognize it even having never seen one before because humans are born with that pattern ( ) hard-wired in their visual processing center.

None of that could be said of a zef until the middle- to late- 3rd trimester.

And a blind person wouldn't be able to see a human face.

Furthermore you didn't answer my question, is the test I proposed a rational test of your cognitive ability?

Ever seen a blind person explore the face of someone they know with their hands? I have. Even if they cannot see the other person, they know that it's a person with a face and that the person also has thoughts and feeligns and can interact with them.

Observing how I processed the experience of seeing, or hearing described, something I had never seen before is a rational test of my cognitive ability. Whether or not I know what 'an apple' is is irrelevant to both myself and a zef, and logically 'knowing what an apple is' (or knowing what any other object is) is not a test used for cognitive ability in adults or zefs. Observing how zefs or adults process new or unusual information, to the extent that we can do so with zefs, *is a valid test of cognitive ability.

@ LKL

Answer the question already.

no but in a lot of blindness cases the underlying neurological wiring would still be in place, not the experiences but there will be some there.


simulating the human brain

this computer currently has a greater chance at learning complex behavior than the first month after conception afaik.

@ LKL & Oodain

I asked you both to answer this, Oodain you may not have seen it cause it is on the previous page.