Republicans succeed in ploy to increase unsafe abortions

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I'm not sure if you understood my argument.

Would you rather the child suffer through years of poverty, or not even be born?

I understood your argument. I don't think it is justifiable to kill a human being on the grounds that they would be poor.

After the birth I would agree, while it's still a fetus, I don't agree. Better for the child to never be born than live in poverty.

Then your stated goal of crafting an argument that does not dehumanize the fetus fails. By treating the two as having two fundamental sets of rights; one where the child can be killed at whim and the other where it gets the full set of protections, is incompatible with the idea of a humanized fetus. If we are dealing with a human being, then it naturally follows that it ought to have human rights.

Last edited by 91 on 28 Jan 2012, 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

When did I claim that the fetus was somehow than human?

Unless you're going to claim that fetus is a degrading term or some such I don't see what you mean.

Here: It was the stated aim of your argument from poverty.

My bad, typo.

The sentence was supposed to read :

When did I claim that the fetus was somehow *less* than human?

When you suggested that the unborn had different rights to the born. Human rights are 'inalienable'. If the unborn child is a human being, then it is entitled to the same rights and freedoms as a child that is born.

If humans had the right to life then food, shelter, water, healthcare, etc. would all be free.

The right to life, is a right not to be killed. It is in just about every document on universal human rights. It obviously has governmental and interpersonal responsibility ramifications and in some countries is sometimes taken to mean exactly what you are implying: That however, is superfluous to this discussion. In it's most basic form, it is the right to not be killed by another human being.

Which seems to conveniently disappear whenever large amounts of money or oil is involved.

People are killed all the time. It's part of any human society.

I think a functioning human brain capable of consciousness is required to earn the title of human. And I'm perfectly ok with outlier cases or fringe examples being adjudicated by either biological family, legally appointed guardian/owners, or medical professionals. Just a personal opinion. Maybe that is why I do not understand this debate very well, because according to my own definition, there is no moral/ethical/philosophical difference between flushing a zygote and flushing the contents of a toilet bowl.

I know when my ex-wife got pregnant, however, the topic of abortion was brought up. I found I was offended by the idea. Not because of anything ethical, simply because I had thought that the basis of our partnership entailed starting a family, and somehow the mere act of bringing up options to back pedal from that goal wasn't pleasant. We decided to have the baby, and I've been happy about that decision every day of my life since, however, I am still very much of the opinion that the alternate choice was just as morally and ethically sound, it would have been a choice to not finish creating a life, it wouldn't have been a choice to take a life.

Rights and entitlements are two different things, obviously.

Two things here:
1. You don't work, you don't eat.
2. Be fair.

My 4 and 3-year olds obviously cannot hold a job and thus are incapable of working for their sustenance in the same way their parents are. So, to be fair, we're obligated to provide for them; otherwise, someone will come and take them away, they'll end up in the foster care system where they'll just be neglected by someone else.

However, though my children are entitled to certain things from us in varying degrees, even 3 and 4-year olds can learn to pick up and sort dirty clothes and get them to the washer. I've even contemplated a two-bucket system so that they can learn to wash dishes on the floor until they can work at the kitchen sink on their own. As it is my oldest can stand up on a chair and wash things like bowls and utensils and is quite useful in helping out around the house.

Not in this case. If you had the right to survive, then whatever was necessary for you to survive would be provided.

What we have is the right to *try* to survive.

A fetus is not entitled to become a human being. It needs a viable, willing host, for once.