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Our friends, the Syrian 'rebels'

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Jacoby
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04 Jun 2013, 4:19 pm

The issues with Erdogan go beyond just his Islamist-lite leanings. Turkey is a democracy much in the same way Russia is, an authoritarian one. Turkey jails more journalists than any country in the world, more than China more than Iran more than Russia. The Gezi Park protests and police response is simply what caused the pot to finally boil over. I mentioned the terrorist bombings that took place in Turkey on May 11th(I think may of said 19th my bad) and the lies the government told about as one of the triggers for this current unrest in Turkey. Saying that, I'm not sure I buy these Kemalists as any less autocratic but they can pretend to be since they're not in power.



trollcatman
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04 Jun 2013, 5:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Just look at the Turkey for example, despite Erdogan's major economical achievements but just because h had been showing a tiny bit of his radical Islamist face recently; masses erupted in protest against him.


If that's 'a bit', that's way too much for me.

Frankly, if they wanted a new flag without the symbols of darkness on it I would have every sympathy with them.

(Their beer is absolutely awful, though. No excuse for that.)


The star and crescent are not really symbols of Islam, but of Tengriism, the original religion of the Turkic peoples and the Mongols. Why some other muslim-majority states use it on their flag is a mystery. A "real" Islamist would do what muslims did in the time of Mohammed, which was to use a clear white, green or black flag. Saudi Arabia uses a green flag with the shahada, same as the Taliban before they got what was coming to them. The Taliban have also used a plain white flag. The Al Nusra idiots use a black flag with what looks like the shahada and some other text.
I think the secular Turks would be happy with their current flag, which is the flag flown by the people who abolished the Ottoman Caliphate. And if you want good beer, don't go to Turkey, go to Belgium. And get some fries with mayonaise as well.

Image



Tequila
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04 Jun 2013, 5:15 pm

trollcatman wrote:
The star and crescent are not really symbols of Islam, but of Tengriism, the original religion of the Turkic peoples and the Mongols. Why some other muslim-majority states use it on their flag is a mystery.


I'm sorry about that! I thought it was a Muslim symbol (and since the 1950s/1960s it has been reinterpreted as being a Muslim symbol)! I understand why secularist Turks like it now. I must say, a Turkish nationalist display I saw in Northern Cyprus affected me a lot.

Makes more sense. Thanks for that.

trollcatman wrote:
I think the secular Turks would be happy with their current flag, which is the flag flown by the people who abolished the Ottoman Caliphate.


And got rid of the Arabic alphabet and switched to Latin. You can see what they were trying to do.

trollcatman wrote:
And if you want good beer, don't go to Turkey, go to Belgium.


Now, come on, Turkish beer is pretty bad, even by Mediterranean standards.

trollcatman wrote:
And get some fries with mayonaise as well.

Image


No. 'Fries' with mayo is disgusting.



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 9:41 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Rhetorical tricks? I think you have me all wrong. I don't want the US directly or indirectly(thru our "allies" Turkey, the Sauds, Qataris, or Israel) involved in Syria. The US has been at war most of my life and all one has to do is look at history to see what meddling in other countries affairs has gotten us. Blowback is a concept that a lot of Americans are only now understanding, everything we do have a reaction. Iran is the textbook example of what happens when the US meddles, the most liberal populace in the middle east now lives under a theocracy. I believe the west has fanned the flames in Syria and that this war would not be happening as it is now without foreign interference, many more people have and will die because of it. The same in happened in Libya, did all the death and destruction have to happen and are their lives any better for it? The war in Syria will effect more than just Syria, it doesn't end with Assad. I don't trust these rebels but they don't change how I feel about intervening in Syria or anywhere else for that matter. The fact they have questionable associations to say the least with al-Qaeda aligned terrorists is just reason more to stay away. This is an unwinnable conflict, even if the rebels prevail and oust Assad which appears doubtful, they can't govern the country as it is now. The cat is out of the bag, it's not going back in either way. I hope the rebel commanders hold as much sway as you think they do over their fighters because there can't be a total victory, they'll have to negotiate an end. One must accept reality and being realistic isn't always what one would hope for.

Perfect world, how do you see this conflict ending where it doesn't destabilize the entire region and without mass slaughter?


Rhetoric tricks, just as I thought. Granted, they're not new ones, just regurgitated crap that had already been addressed in this thread.

Next time, don't say rebels and commanders without specifying whom. You're still conflating them altogether, and it's starting to show me that you're being intellectually dishonest.



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 9:43 pm

Jacoby wrote:
If it's just 1 in 2 Arabs that support Islamism/Sharia/etc then that's pretty bad odds. I get your point fine tho, not all of the rebels believe what that Jihadis do but that doesn't change the fact that a healthy portion do. Islamists and general chaos are not problems that might happen if Assad falls, it will happen. That's just reality, the question is to what extent. There are thousands and thousands of foreign fighters in Syria right now and I don't think they'll just go home, they never do.

I don't think the world should turn a blind eye to Syria, they obvious aren't considering the meddling already going on there. The world should work towards a peaceful solution not more bloodshed. America has been enough wars and they do not make us safer or any better off.


People like you are already turning a blind eye to Syria. You don't seem to care about peace there, just that Assad stays still because, in your mind, if Assad goes down, then it means America won, and you don't seem to like that,



Jacoby
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12 Jul 2013, 10:33 am

Quote:
Fighters from an al-Qaeda-linked group in Syria have killed a leader of the Western- and Arab-backed Free Syrian Army after stopping him at a checkpoint, an FSA spokesman said, underlining growing rifts between Syrian opposition groups.

Kamal Hamami, a member of the FSA's Supreme Military Council, known as Abu Basir, was killed in the Turkmen mountains near the northern city of Latakia, spokesman Louay Meqdad told Al Jazeera on Friday.

Meqdad said the commander was killed after a heated debate with a local leader of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in which the leader called the FSA "infidels".

Hamami's brother, who was travelling in the car with him, was also killed, the spokesman said. The brothers and a third man had been on a surveillance mission before a planned attack on government forces, Meqdad said.

A third man was allowed to leave to report the killings.

Another FSA spokesman, Qassem Saadeddine, said the group phoned him to admit the killing.

"[They said] that they will kill all of the Supreme Military Council," Saadeddine said from Syria.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23283079
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 49717.html



ruveyn
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12 Jul 2013, 12:02 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Quote:
Fighters from an al-Qaeda-linked group in Syria have killed a leader of the Western- and Arab-backed Free Syrian Army after stopping him at a checkpoint, an FSA spokesman said, underlining growing rifts between Syrian opposition groups.

Kamal Hamami, a member of the FSA's Supreme Military Council, known as Abu Basir, was killed in the Turkmen mountains near the northern city of Latakia, spokesman Louay Meqdad told Al Jazeera on Friday.

Meqdad said the commander was killed after a heated debate with a local leader of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in which the leader called the FSA "infidels".

Hamami's brother, who was travelling in the car with him, was also killed, the spokesman said. The brothers and a third man had been on a surveillance mission before a planned attack on government forces, Meqdad said.

A third man was allowed to leave to report the killings.

Another FSA spokesman, Qassem Saadeddine, said the group phoned him to admit the killing.

"[They said] that they will kill all of the Supreme Military Council," Saadeddine said from Syria.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23283079
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/midd
leeast/2013/07/20137127710849717.html


Islam: The Religion of Peace



xenon13
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12 Jul 2013, 5:12 pm

Assad is the best option right now.



Jacoby
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14 Jul 2013, 4:51 pm

Quote:
The Syrian army has discovered a storehouse belonging to rebels in the Damascus area of Jobar, where toxic chemical substances - including chlorine - have been produced and kept, State TV reported.

Military sources reported that the militants "were preparing to fire mortars in the suburbs of the capital and were going to pack missiles with chemical warheads."

A video shot by RT’s sister channel Russia Al Youm shows an old, partly ruined building which was set up as a laboratory. After entering the building, Syrian Army officers found scores of canisters and bags laid on the floor and tables. According to a warning sign on the bags, the “corrosive” substance was made in Saudi Arabia.

On July 7, the Syrian army confiscated “281 barrels filled with dangerous, hazardous chemical materials” that they found at a cache belonging to rebels in the city of Banias. The chemicals included monoethylene glycol and polyethylene glycol.

Syrian UN Ambassador Bashar Ja’afari said that the chemicals were “capable of destroying a whole city, if not the whole country."

Chief UN chemical weapons investigator Ake Sellstrom and UN disarmament chief Angela Kane are expected in Damascus for talks on Monday, following an invitation from the Syrian government.


link



simon_says
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14 Jul 2013, 6:48 pm

The Syrian government can say that they found a concentration camp filled with jews. It's a dictatorship trying to fight a PR war through state run media. It's about as credible as a Baghdad Bob briefing.

Quote:
Fighters from an al-Qaeda-linked group in Syria have killed a leader of the Western- and Arab-backed Free Syrian Army after stopping him at a checkpoint, an FSA spokesman said, underlining growing rifts between Syrian opposition groups.


Wait, that's impossible. All arabs and muslims are extremists. How can they kill non-extremists...er...failure...failure. Right wing talking points going down hard by the bow. I'd hate to see the mental damage that story caused on Free Republic.



Jacoby
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15 Jul 2013, 1:10 am

You don't believe the rebels have used chemical weapons? The UN investigator believes that the rebels used sarin back in May. Turkey discovered sarin in possession of al-Nusra terrorists that same month as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 9Z20130505
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-po ... ia/5336917

Western corporate media isn't any more credible than state ones in Syria or Russia. If you need any proof of that, think back to the lead up to the Iraq War.



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15 Jul 2013, 4:28 am

The first thing that dies is truth.

Saudis supplied the weapons, chemicals, men, money, to invade syria. This also involved funding local support groups. The FSA is not self funding.

Tell them you are backing a democratic future, or an Islamic future, or Disneyland in the middle east, it is all the same, lets you and him fight.

Now comes the reality of war, people die.

Now it comes down to who is better at killing.

The dogs of war cut off a few heads, chew on some hearts, and the army reduces the city to rubble.

As the Americans did it Tekreite, city removal, and in Afganistan, all males between fifteen and fifty, are the enemy, and anyone they are with.

Only a 150 were killed when the army took a town with two arms warehouses? Some buildings were left standing?

100,000 dead is a pile of bodies. A thousand a week. That many can only come from one place, the human shield the rebels are using. They are the dumb and the poor that had no place to go. Or were not allowed to leave.

So the army takes out a neighborhood and reports 35 terrorists killed, weapons and chemicals captured, and does not mention the 2,000 that died.

That is war, and there is another town down the road that is shooting at us.

Taking out a suburb of poor people in rundown housing, clearing the ground, opens it for new construction, and gets rid of expensive people.

War is the systematic destruction of enemy assets.



simon_says
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15 Jul 2013, 10:26 am

Jacoby wrote:
You don't believe the rebels have used chemical weapons? The UN investigator believes that the rebels used sarin back in May. Turkey discovered sarin in possession of al-Nusra terrorists that same month as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 9Z20130505
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-po ... ia/5336917

Western corporate media isn't any more credible than state ones in Syria or Russia. If you need any proof of that, think back to the lead up to the Iraq War.



Two different stories. Funny to see some kind of anti statist acting as a mouthpiece for a dictator



Jacoby
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15 Jul 2013, 11:10 am

simon_says wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You don't believe the rebels have used chemical weapons? The UN investigator believes that the rebels used sarin back in May. Turkey discovered sarin in possession of al-Nusra terrorists that same month as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 9Z20130505
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-po ... ia/5336917

Western corporate media isn't any more credible than state ones in Syria or Russia. If you need any proof of that, think back to the lead up to the Iraq War.



Two different stories. Funny to see some kind of anti statist acting as a mouthpiece for a dictator


I do not want the US to be involved in a another war. Anyone that knows history knows how this story will end and it will not be good for the US or the Syrian people. We've been being lied to for a long time now, we have our own interests in the region. The US, the Gulf states, Israel, and Europe have just as much blood on their hands as Assad/Putin/whoever in this conflict or more since it's not happening without them. How can you decry Assad as some brutal dictator that must be removed but support Saudi Arabia?

First Syria and next Iran, the neoconservative dream. They want to 'remake' the entire Middle East. The president's mindless supporters are so disgustingly partisan and clueless that they don't even care about Obama lied to them. He is no different than Bush, he's even more of a neocon than Bush to be honest. At least Bush made the argument that his interventions were for our own safety as dubious as that was.



Last edited by Jacoby on 15 Jul 2013, 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
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15 Jul 2013, 11:19 am

Jacoby wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You don't believe the rebels have used chemical weapons? The UN investigator believes that the rebels used sarin back in May. Turkey discovered sarin in possession of al-Nusra terrorists that same month as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 9Z20130505
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-po ... ia/5336917

Western corporate media isn't any more credible than state ones in Syria or Russia. If you need any proof of that, think back to the lead up to the Iraq War.



Two different stories. Funny to see some kind of anti statist acting as a mouthpiece for a dictator


I do not want the US to be involved in a another war. Anyone that knows history knows how this story will end and it will not be good for the US or the Syrian people. We've been being lied to for a long time now, we have our own interests in the region. The US, the Gulf states, Israel, and Europe have just as much blood on their hands as Assad/Putin/whoever in this conflict or more since it's not happening without them. How can you decry Assad as some brutal dictator that must be removed but support Saudi Arabia?

First Syria and next Iran, the neoconservative dream. They want to 'remake' the entire Middle East. The president's mindless supporters are so disgustingly partisan and clueless that they don't even care about Obama lied to them. He is no different than Bush, he's even more of a neocon than Bush to be honest. At least Bush made the argument that



I find so much wrong with these paragraphs that its just not worth my time



Jacoby
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15 Jul 2013, 11:29 am

simon_says wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You don't believe the rebels have used chemical weapons? The UN investigator believes that the rebels used sarin back in May. Turkey discovered sarin in possession of al-Nusra terrorists that same month as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 9Z20130505
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-po ... ia/5336917

Western corporate media isn't any more credible than state ones in Syria or Russia. If you need any proof of that, think back to the lead up to the Iraq War.



Two different stories. Funny to see some kind of anti statist acting as a mouthpiece for a dictator


I do not want the US to be involved in a another war. Anyone that knows history knows how this story will end and it will not be good for the US or the Syrian people. We've been being lied to for a long time now, we have our own interests in the region. The US, the Gulf states, Israel, and Europe have just as much blood on their hands as Assad/Putin/whoever in this conflict or more since it's not happening without them. How can you decry Assad as some brutal dictator that must be removed but support Saudi Arabia?

First Syria and next Iran, the neoconservative dream. They want to 'remake' the entire Middle East. The president's mindless supporters are so disgustingly partisan and clueless that they don't even care about Obama lied to them. He is no different than Bush, he's even more of a neocon than Bush to be honest. At least Bush made the argument that



I find so much wrong with these paragraphs that its just not worth my time


Of course you do, since you love Obama and believe everything CNN tells you. Did you support Bush's foreign policy, yes or no? If not, differentiate the two. I remember you supported our adventure into Libya too. What are you going to say when Obama turns his attention to Iran?