income inequality and abortion

Post Reply New Topic

Have I ever written, that you were forbidden to think of yourself as someone being better then other people, and as someone whose opinion should be more important then the opinions of others?

The question is, only because of you are allowed to think, that your opinion is more important and the only right opinion, and that it so should matter for everyone...why should others having other opinions agree into that?

We dont have to define that. In my country we defined, that upon the first 10 weeks of development, the decision of defining if this is murder or not for someone, is upon everyone else personal opinions.

No, you've never written that, and that's not the point. However, it seems obvious to me that you think of yourself as someone being better than other people and that your opinion is more important than mine. The point I'm getting at here is that if you believe your opinion deserves treatment equal with mine, then you necessarily believe that my opinion is just as important, equally, with yours. By default, you have to admit that we're either BOTH right or BOTH wrong. Which means, according to you, that "abortion isn't murder for everyone" and "abortion is nearly ALWAYS murder for everyone" are BOTH perfectly valid statements that are both right. The problem with that is if I say "abortion is always murder" while you say "abortion is murder for me but not for someone else," only one of those statements can be true. If I'm right, then abortion is murder and you're flat wrong. If you're right, then my statement cannot possibly be. Which is absurd. It's absurd because if you are right, then I can't possibly be right and thus my statement cannot possibly have equal value to yours.

To sum it up, if you didn't hold that your belief is superior to mine, you wouldn't have voiced it the way you did. You SAY that it's a personal decision, but you don't really mean it.

Whether or not YOU would ever abort a child is irrelevant in this case. You think it's perfectly OK for anyone to have abortions at any time for any reason--just not OK for YOU.

If that's the way you really feel, why not just say that? Don't be wishy-washy and throw around flimsy "opinions."


We all hold our own opinions, you included, as superior to others. It's a common human tendency. If I can be PERSUADED and SHOWN where and how I'm wrong about something, I have no problem adjusting my position. For example, I believe the Biblical account of creation. I USED to say evolution does not happen...EVER. My beliefs regarding evolution had to do with the false assumption that rapid speciation simply does not occur. I know now that speciation can occur in just a few short generations, so I HAVE to concede that evolution DOES occur. Do I believe in some exaggerated apes-to-man kind of evolution? No. Do I think evidence really points to common ancestors between apes and man. No. But that's not the same thing as saying "No evolution." So I CAN learn to accept others' beliefs/opinions/interpretations of facts as superior to my own. I'm not hard-headed or stubborn. But I do tend to remain skeptical until I can see something that I'll find convincing. You don't have to be an atheist to maintain a reasonably skeptical attitude. And as it stands with the abortion discussion, I fail to see how it is abortion IN MOST CASES is anything but murder.

To answer your question here, people shouldn't HAVE to agree with that, and that's not the point I'm trying to make. In a free society, we have the right to try to persuade others to think the way we do, just as others have the right to try to persuade me to think the way they do. It's give-and-take. My point is that if everything is a matter of personal opinion, you have the logical problem of someone stating an absolute, upon which a person who does not believe in absolutes will accuse this person of being "wrong." Well, that would mean that the person who doesn't believe in absolutes is making an absolute statement: "You are wrong." Therefore, people who claim not to believe in absolutes are really liars, even if they are unaware that they are lying. The only consistent statement they can say, like you have, is "I think X is [wrong/right], but that's just my opinion; do what you want." It's not about what people should or should not be compelled to agree with; it's about making rational statements.


"Upon the first 10 weeks of development..."

That strikes me as arbitrary in the extreme. What makes a 10-week-old (after conception) so special? What qualities would a younger baby lack that make abortion acceptable at that stage? There are elderly dementia patients who lack a lot of what we consider evidence of intelligence or consciousness, and somehow we tend to be highly defensive of their right to life and dignity.

And, again, I've already pointed out the philosophical issue of basing decisions on personal opinion. According to my opinion, we should stop that immediately. If my personal opinion holds equal validity and importance, which it clearly doesn't, then, I dunno, HALF (maybe?) of abortions should ever even take place? I'm telling you, opinions don't count. You have to do better than that. Either that, or I should file a lawsuit for damages for all the times I got burned for not getting my way based on "my personal opinion." You happen to be in a position in which your personal opinion is a shared one within your demographic to the point that your opinion actually matters. It's easy for you to say everything you say, but the way you've phrased it makes it applicable to everyone. You don't allow for an opposing viewpoint. You've got your feet planted firmly in mid-air.

All I'm trying to do is offer a little help.

Yes I do think, that my opinion is for things that dont effect you in any way, but effect me in any way, and where you will not have to face the consequences, but I will have to face the consequences, that my opinion is more important about that. If you want, you can do a test about it, and ask other people, about what YOU are hungry, and what YOU want to eat tonight, but I think most people will tell you, that you should decide that yourself, as long as you only cook for yourself.

Yes, I think that your opinion, regarding desicions in your life, is as important as my opinion regarding desicions of my life. I think I am right that it is upon me to decide upon my feelings, and upon you to decide upon your feelings. And if you think, that I should do the desicions, not impacting my life, but impacting your life, while you should decide stuff about my life, impacting me, but not you, I think you are totally wrong in any way. Yes, thats what I have written in almost every post here. Thanks for giving me the first time the feeling, that someones here really reads my post. If we go both in an room and you say it feels cold for you and I say it feels hot for me, can only one statement be true? If I say Pizza tastes sh***y for me, and you say Pizza tastes yummi for you, is there only one right statement? If I say, it feels fine for me to kill any animal for eating, while another one says, he cant do it because of him feeling guilty about that, is there only one true oppinion? O_o

The problem you have is using the word IS. While if you may have noticed, I do not decide upon what generally is or might be, but only upon what people feel. And people CAN definitly without problem feel different, and both can be without any problem right about that. While telling my friend that feels guilty about killing animals; "No you dont feel guilty about it. Because I dont, so you must feel the same way, and there can be only one statement of ours true, and I know definitly that I dont feel guilty about it, so your statement of feeling guilty, must be a lie." thats definitly wrong.

You are totally right about having the feeling toward the topic that you have. You are totally wrong, if you think that I have to feel as you do. I am totally right about feeling the way toward that topic as I do, just as you are totally right to have the feelings about that topic that you do. Me having another opinion about something affecting my life, doesnt make you having your oppinion about something affecting your life wrong. Nope, there is absolutely nothing absurd that people have different opinions towards topics. If it feels better to you to live in a flat, while the responsibility and work a house needs, is annoying to you, then you are right trying to acchieve living a flat. If you hate living in a flat, and feel that the benefits of living in an house outmatch totally the additional work and responsibilty, then you are right trying to acchieve living in a house. There is absolutely nothing absurd about it.

I definitly mean, that its your personal desicion, what you eat at dinner today, because you will have the work of cooking, and you will eat it. That some things you might want to eat, might be sh***y in my opinion should not affect you. Just as your opinions toward, what I will eat to you, dont affect me. Of what use is it, that you might think a Chili con Carne is not worth the effort because of you anyway not eating it, because of you disliking it, when it tastes absolutely fine to me? I sweart you, in my opinion you have the full right to freely decide, what you wanna eat to dinner today then I have. When you want to start forcing your dinner on me, and telling me that my dinner desicions must be wrong, because of them not agreing with your dinner desicions, and there can be only one truly statement about what we eat for dinner tonight, you are weird.

[/quote]Whether or not YOU would ever abort a child is irrelevant in this case. You think it's perfectly OK for anyone to have abortions at any time for any reason--just not OK for YOU.[/quote] I think its ok for anyone to do that desicion for himself, just as I do that desicion for myself.

[quoet]If that's the way you really feel, why not just say that? Don't be wishy-washy and throw around flimsy "opinions." [/quote] The reason why I did not write, that this would be my as I fell, is that I dont feel like that. I have written around half a dozend time what my oppinion is.

I personally, would wish that there were less abortions done out of life style reasons. I personally would not do an abortion, because of me feeling guilty of it, in an amount that would outmatch the possible negative effect of having a child in an non perfect moment of my life. I personally respect, that people can have totally different feelings about that, just as they can have totally different feelings about a tons of other things, from dinner plans to room temperature. It is for me understandable, that for someone, who feels as a fetus of 6 weeks of an non emotion-able cellball, the negative effect of feeling guilty of aborting some non-feeling cells, will be far less, then having a kid at an non perfect moment.

Ok, a room temperature of 22° Celsius feel fine for me, while a majority of people will say its too hit. What do you now want to try? PERSUADE me that I dont feel fine, when I feel fine? SHOW me that I dont feel fine, when I feel fine? O_o How do you want to PERSUADE and SHOW someone who dislikes Pizza, that he doesnt dislike Pizza? O_o And when you are already doing so, go to the vegetarian thread and PERSUADE and SHOW people that feel guilty about killing animals, that they dont feel that way.

Its ok, that it feels as murder for you. It feels for me as well. What effect does this have for someone, for whom an abortion of some emotionless cells, does not feel as murder?

Around that age the cell bulb becomes able to feel pain. The difference for a lot of moderate religious people around here, is that if we tolerate and accept the oppinion of others that an unborn life is no full human, then we want them as well to accept our oppinion, that you should do this in the last possible cruel way, so as long as it cannot feel. Do they lack as well functioning nerves? Even braindead coma-patients must be given an anesthetic, so that the transplant doctors can remove the organs, without instinctive body reactions.

Ok, choose someone here in the forum, that shall decide in the future, what you feel hungry for. Choose someone to decide for you, if it feels better to live with roommates, in a flat or in a house. Choose someone to decide for you, which kind of job feels best for you. Choose someone to decide for you if you prefer to ride by car or public transportation.

Why half of them? Are you responsible and involved in half of the abortions happening? O_o Holy s**t, ever thought of tying your tubes? Because if your personal opinion holds equal validity and importance then everyone elses personal opinion, its only your own responsible abortion, for that your oppinion matters. Ok, I just decided for you that you like wearing Minni-Mouse T-shirts. Your opinion is not counting. Ok, then T-Shirts with Minny Mouse and Daisy Duck having gay sex with each other. Ok, exactly how often have you been forbidden to decide how you feel about something? Are there really weird people around your place, that tell you that if you feel tired: "No you dont feel like that?" Actually opinions toward that topic are so spreaded, that the right desicion for all to do, was deciding, that tehre is no right desicion for everyone, because of so many people feeling totally different about it. Yop, you are right. If someone tries to tell me how I feel toward a certain oppinion, and how I shall decide, not caring for how I feel toward that, I will oppose that, and try in any way to not allow them to do so.

To get out of struggling about an topic, when there simply never will be ONE fitting agreement for all with only ONE opinion about it, we simply decided that unlike many other stuff WE DONT decide about it as community, but give that desicion to the individual. And that everyone trying to force his opinion aggressively toward that on others, shall f**k off. So I can f**k off telling people I know personally and that want to abort or have aborted, that they shouldnt do it, because of the way I feel about it. And they shall f**k off, trying to involve me into their individual desicion, by letting me pay for something that I feel as being responsible for murdering. From what I can compare from reading, it functions: So no bombing on abortion doctors here or protest mobs before abortion hospitals or burocratic barriers from one side. In the opposition respect for the wish of others people feeling, that you should not force needless pain on an living being, anyway if you want to declare it as human or animal or whatever. It functions that way now for a really long time without any struggles or aggresivity towards people, while the american way of "There can only be one right desicion." dont seem to make people that happy, as far as I can read from articles about attacks against doctors and whatever. Forcing on the majority to become responsible of abortion by paying taxes for it, would ruin that system, that worked peacefully for decades and get us back into seeking for the ultimate truth, which simply does not exist, for an topic that is higly affected by personal feelings toward that topic.

I think they key word you are missing is "preference". If the mother would prefer to terminate, but is prevented, then she will be raising a child which she would have preferred to "murder". This is the point which your post doesn't address.

In addition, if I gave the impression I lived in a terrible country, I don't, we have a beautiful country and good civil liberty, just some woman's rights have always lagged behind because the church gets in the way. I don't think any woman has ever been prosecuted for terminating illegally, but rape victims can have their passports confiscated if its thought they might travel for a termination. I remember a case of a man being jailed for stabbing his pregnant ex-girlfriend through the womb, most of his sentence was for killing the unborn child. That is a good part of the law. In other countries that wouldn't have counted, only the assault on the mother. We have no death penalty.

Ok. Safe travels and happy holidays.

let it never be said that Ireland is a civilized nation.

I have an Aunt moved from Ireland to a Muslim country in the 1970s, she told me the job opportunities and equality for women were much better there. I guess since then the advent of AIDs brought about the legalisation of contraceptives, the first divorces were allowed and then the law changed to remove a mans legal right to have sex with his estranged wife against her will. Its come a long way, but abortion isn't even on the horizon yet.