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BettaPonic
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13 Mar 2017, 8:52 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
There you go. Anyone who says "it's not up for debate" can go pound sand up their ass. Including those who say that the definition of gender or sex is not up for debate in this thread.

Everything is up for debate, just not at every time or in every place. I thought I should be clear on that, considering the nature of this forum.

If they don't want to debate a bunch of idiots on their own tumblr feed, I can respect that. That's a time and place issue, and you don't have an automatic right to fill up their blog with your nonsense, however brilliant and relevant it may seem to you.

I agree everything is up for debate. I also don't think someone should be taken seriously if they don't present evidence (in all topics).



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13 Mar 2017, 8:59 pm

Then you plan to put forth the policies which will accomplish your society that is blind to differences?


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13 Mar 2017, 9:34 pm

BettaPonic wrote:
Chronos wrote:
The_Blonde_Alien wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I feel this thread has been somewhat hijacked from the OP, so I would like to redirect attention back to him (or her if that is the desired pronoun) and ask what has provoked the OP to make this post? Surely something unpleasant for the OP has transpired.


Yeah I made up my mind and decided to keep identifying as female. So that genderfluid idea is completely abandoned.

The reason I decided to make this thread was becuase I fear that, with the rise of third-wave feminism, we might end up creating a matriarch society instead of the "equal" society that we equality-seekers worked so hard to build. Of course that is not to say that men aren't abusing their power, but by no means is that a valid excuse to be treating them like second-class citizens!


I also feel concerend about the extremist acts of the mostly Tumblr-dwelling feminists who spread their immature ideas that dictate:

-It's impossible for a black person to be racist (Seriously? Anyone of any race can and will be racist!)

-It's impossible to be racist against whites (fun fact: it's racist to be calling white people racist without any valid proof :wink: )

-It is an abnormal thing in life for one's feelings to be hurt (the majority of the people who spread this idea aren't even kids! )

-Gender is a social construct (if that was true I would be Identifying as a man a long time ago. :lol: But since my brain is hardwired to make me act like a woman, I can't choose to be a man. The reality is that gender, like it or not, has biological properties, especually when it comes to the human brain's neurlogical structure.)

with that I hope you understand where I'm coming from. :)


I think I do understand where you are coming from. You feel attacked and mischaracterized by these people, and that they are dismissing and invalidating your experiences perhaps?

Yes, they are often hypocrites who embody the very thing they claim to fight against. I knew one of these people who claimed that black people could not be racist against white people. She claimed this on the basis that she used a different definition of racism than the general public. Her definition made a distinction between racism and racial prejudice, where racial prejudice was the broader term for hate and discrimination against someone of a particular race, and racism required systemic oppression against one race by a dominating race. In her definition, black people could not be racist against white people, because black people have never been in a systemic dominant position over white people.

Well, most people don't use that definition, and are not even aware of it, so to use it without first defining that that is what one means by "racism", is to immediately fling the conversation into instant misunderstanding and throw people's defenses up.

It's also true though that many of the individuals who use this definition often harbor negative feelings towards white people themselves, and use this platform to vent their feelings. In this, they become no different than those they claim to speak against. Same hate, different brand.

As long as there are more than a handful of people in the world, there will always be people who hate you for the mere fact that you exist, and nothing you can do will change that because these people are often so entrenched in their ideologies and ideas that it's almost as if they are psychotic and delusional.

I'm a jew, and I have to live with the fact that there are people in the world who think strange things about me because of that. For example, 1. I control the world and want to enslave gentiles. 2. I'm a reptilian from outerspace. 3. I eat babies. 4. I'm greedy. 5. I'm rich. 6. I'm cheap. 7. I'm a communist. 8. I hate non-jews. 9. I consider non-jews inferior. etc, etc, etc, and thus because of these things they think of me, they brand me as the enemy.

I'm also an American, and because of that there are people in the world who think...
1. I'm stupid or ignorant. 2. I'm fat. 3. I eat nothing but junk food. 4. I want to invade North Korea (North Koreans think Americans are preoccupied with destroying them)

I'm also female, and because of that, I have to live with the fact that there are people in the world who think...
1. I'm a gold digger. 2. I'm intellectually inferior. 3. I'm emotional and illogical. 4. I'm incompetent in anything but child rearing and house keeping. 5. I'm manipulative (but still somehow unintelligent and illogical), 6. I hate men. 7. Life is easy for me because men do everything for me, or I don't have to work as hard due to affirmative action (doesn't exist where I am, never benefited from it).

I'm also relatively white...I pass for it anyway, and because of that fact, I have to live with the fact that some people think.
1. I'm racist. 2. Life is easy for me. 3. I'm a "white devil" who is destined for hell. 4. I've never experienced adversity. 5. I've never struggled financially. 6. I am blind to the struggles of non white people.

I'm not trying to make it look like I have it worse than anyone else here. I'm just illustrating that no matter who you are, there are people out there who will hate you for something whether or not you embody that something, and whether or not it's rational.

So how do I deal with these people who hate me so much and who are too irrational to have actual dialogue with? The same way I deal with any irrational person. I walk away from them and I find people who like me.
I don't let their bitterness and hate against me intrude into my life. I don't seek them out and try to fight them because in most instances, it's futile. They are too far gone and too delusional, and your time is better spent on happier pursuits...if you do that, you will realize that these people are on the fringes of society and most people don't harbor their ideas.

It only sometimes seems like these people are more prevalent and are bigger problems than they are because of the way the internet actually works. When you visit a website or watch a video, it's stored in a tracking cookie, and websites like Youtube, and Tumblr, and Google, etc, etc, etc, use algorithms that say "Oh, this is what you like? I'll show you more!" So you will start seeing recommendations and ads, and news stories, and search results that are oriented towards these things. I recommend you stop visiting websites and clicking on stories and videos about these things, and clear your cookies and browsing history, and start only looking up things that don't upset you. Otherwise, the internet will have you thinking everyone hates you.

Don't worry is atheists eat babies to and worship Karl Marx. :lol:
Everyone knows Jews don't rule the world, its the illuminati. :lol:
On a more serious not there are stupid people in the world who believe the craziest thing. I have seen some conspiracy theories that make no sense. I have seen chemtrails, febreeze turns people gay, Satan runs music, and video games cause violence. I cannot forget Obama is turning the frogs gay. My favorite is juice boxes cause homosexuality.


Yep. There are lots of people in the world with weird ideas. There's something called schizotypal personality disorder, where people aren't quite psychotic but tend to harbor these strange beliefs. There was an article a while back about delusions among people who didn't quite qualify for a schizophrenia diagnosis. Apparently perfectly healthy individuals are prone to certain delusions or delusion like thinking, and the article was discussing how the internet makes what would have been transient delusions into more permanent ones, because these people find others on the internet who share their delusions, thus reinforcing them, rather than allowing them to come to their senses.



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14 Mar 2017, 12:32 am

I myself have never been a victim of sexism against men. My issue is that I feel if I was I wouldn't be taken seriously.

I'd either get told there's no such thing sexism towards men, our problems are worse (it shouldn't matter who's problems are worse or get told to stop whining or stop being a crybaby.

I find that last one to be particularly egregious. When men talk like that feminists call it "toxic masculinity". Yep feminists give themselves a free pass.

I've heard some feminists say that feminism helps men too because they want to destroy the macho culture that is harmful to some men. Yet they have no issue using this macho culture when it comes to shaming men who don't fit their narrative for not being macho enough.

As for shaming tactics, they never change -
If you don't agree with me then you're a whiner
If you don't agree with me then you're a nazi
If you don't agree with me then you're a commie
If you don't agree with me then you're a satanist
If you don't agree with me then you're a witch


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14 Mar 2017, 12:49 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
I myself have never been a victim of sexism against men. My issue is that I feel if I was I wouldn't be taken seriously.

I'd either get told there's no such thing sexism towards men, our problems are worse (it shouldn't matter who's problems are worse or get told to stop whining or stop being a crybaby.

I find that last one to be particularly egregious. When men talk like that feminists call it "toxic masculinity". Yep feminists give themselves a free pass.

I've heard some feminists say that feminism helps men too because they want to destroy the macho culture that is harmful to some men. Yet they have no issue using this macho culture when it comes to shaming men who don't fit their narrative for not being macho enough.

As for shaming tactics, they never change -
If you don't agree with me then you're a whiner
If you don't agree with me then you're a nazi
If you don't agree with me then you're a commie
If you don't agree with me then you're a satanist
If you don't agree with me then you're a witch


I think people who conform to gender norms are less likely to encounter sexism, and people who don't conform to gender norms are more likely to encounter sexism.



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14 Mar 2017, 1:00 am

Chronos wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I myself have never been a victim of sexism against men. My issue is that I feel if I was I wouldn't be taken seriously.

I'd either get told there's no such thing sexism towards men, our problems are worse (it shouldn't matter who's problems are worse or get told to stop whining or stop being a crybaby.

I find that last one to be particularly egregious. When men talk like that feminists call it "toxic masculinity". Yep feminists give themselves a free pass.

I've heard some feminists say that feminism helps men too because they want to destroy the macho culture that is harmful to some men. Yet they have no issue using this macho culture when it comes to shaming men who don't fit their narrative for not being macho enough.

As for shaming tactics, they never change -
If you don't agree with me then you're a whiner
If you don't agree with me then you're a nazi
If you don't agree with me then you're a commie
If you don't agree with me then you're a satanist
If you don't agree with me then you're a witch


I think people who conform to gender norms are less likely to encounter sexism, and people who don't conform to gender norms are more likely to encounter sexism.

 
I don't think people should be forced to conform to gender norms if they don't want to. That's a type of sexism. I don't think feminists should use this type of sexism to silence dissent.

It's sad that groups who claim they want to end sexism use sexism for their own purposes.


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14 Mar 2017, 1:05 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Chronos wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I myself have never been a victim of sexism against men. My issue is that I feel if I was I wouldn't be taken seriously.

I'd either get told there's no such thing sexism towards men, our problems are worse (it shouldn't matter who's problems are worse or get told to stop whining or stop being a crybaby.

I find that last one to be particularly egregious. When men talk like that feminists call it "toxic masculinity". Yep feminists give themselves a free pass.

I've heard some feminists say that feminism helps men too because they want to destroy the macho culture that is harmful to some men. Yet they have no issue using this macho culture when it comes to shaming men who don't fit their narrative for not being macho enough.

As for shaming tactics, they never change -
If you don't agree with me then you're a whiner
If you don't agree with me then you're a nazi
If you don't agree with me then you're a commie
If you don't agree with me then you're a satanist
If you don't agree with me then you're a witch


I think people who conform to gender norms are less likely to encounter sexism, and people who don't conform to gender norms are more likely to encounter sexism.

 
I don't think people should be forced to conform to gender norms if they don't want to. That's a type of sexism. I don't think feminists should use this type of sexism to silence dissent.

It's sad that groups who claim they want to end sexism use sexism for their own purposes.


I don't think they should be forced to conform to gender norms either. Though some people naturally do, and are less likely to encounter sexism because of it.



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14 Mar 2017, 6:07 am

Chronos wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Chronos wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I myself have never been a victim of sexism against men. My issue is that I feel if I was I wouldn't be taken seriously.

I'd either get told there's no such thing sexism towards men, our problems are worse (it shouldn't matter who's problems are worse or get told to stop whining or stop being a crybaby.

I find that last one to be particularly egregious. When men talk like that feminists call it "toxic masculinity". Yep feminists give themselves a free pass.

I've heard some feminists say that feminism helps men too because they want to destroy the macho culture that is harmful to some men. Yet they have no issue using this macho culture when it comes to shaming men who don't fit their narrative for not being macho enough.

As for shaming tactics, they never change -
If you don't agree with me then you're a whiner
If you don't agree with me then you're a nazi
If you don't agree with me then you're a commie
If you don't agree with me then you're a satanist
If you don't agree with me then you're a witch


I think people who conform to gender norms are less likely to encounter sexism, and people who don't conform to gender norms are more likely to encounter sexism.

 
I don't think people should be forced to conform to gender norms if they don't want to. That's a type of sexism. I don't think feminists should use this type of sexism to silence dissent.

It's sad that groups who claim they want to end sexism use sexism for their own purposes.


I don't think they should be forced to conform to gender norms either. Though some people naturally do, and are less likely to encounter sexism because of it.


Those who have the greatest exposure to sexists are those who are most likely to experience sexism.

I consider it "problematic" that the same school of thought that suggests "sex" is not the same as "gender" seeks to use the word "sexism" to describe both discrimination based on sex and "transphobia", etc. Worse are those who consider it "misogyny" in all instances. If a man who identifies as something other than a man and exhibits what are considered to be atypical male behaviours is discriminated against, is it misandry or misogyny? Perhaps it could be considered both, but I'm not sure it should be classed as either.



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14 Mar 2017, 6:28 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Then you plan to put forth the policies which will accomplish your society that is blind to differences?

Policies are useless in my opinion for changing this stuff. I think the best way is restructuring the education system.



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14 Mar 2017, 7:47 am

Feminists love to encourage gender stereotypes such as the rich arrogant man and the weak helpless woman.

Feminists often exhibit misogyny by falsely portraying women as weak and helpless.

Another form of feminist misogyny is saying women are unable to give consent, lowering women to the status of children.


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14 Mar 2017, 7:52 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Feminists love to encourage gender stereotypes such as the rich arrogant man and the weak helpless woman.

Feminists often exhibit misogyny by falsely portraying women as weak and helpless.

Another form of feminist misogyny is saying women are unable to give consent, lowering women to the status of children.

I have heard that before and I agree. I really wish feminism could trickle down to places like Saudi Arabia. The funny thing is I see feminist supporting radical Muslims.



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14 Mar 2017, 8:17 am

BettaPonic wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Feminists love to encourage gender stereotypes such as the rich arrogant man and the weak helpless woman.

Feminists often exhibit misogyny by falsely portraying women as weak and helpless.

Another form of feminist misogyny is saying women are unable to give consent, lowering women to the status of children.

I have heard that before and I agree. I really wish feminism could trickle down to places like Saudi Arabia. The funny thing is I see feminist supporting radical Muslims.

Yes they do support radical Muslims. Take a look at this!

The Middle-East needs feminism but I don't think it would be a smart idea to force Western style feminism on the Middle East. Western style feminism is optomised for the West. It was developed without Middle Eastern culture in mind.

If we force Western ideas on the Middle-East it may have unforseen consequences. For example, it may seem appalling to us that in some Middle_Eastern countries a married woman must have her husbands permission to work. If we abollished that law blindly it would cause problems. In their culture the man must provide for his family 100%. That means if his wife has a job, none of her salary goes on family expenses, not even her own. Her entire salary goes into her savings account. If a woman gets a job, she may need to buy and maintain a car to get to work. She may need childcare. In the West, these expenses could come out of her own salary. No problem. In the Middle-East the wife's car and childcare are considered family expenses and so must be paid for by the husband. So if his salary goes on normal family expenses, if his wife got a job he would have to get a second job just to pay for her childcare and car insurance. Unbeknown to most westerners, it is for reasons like this that a Middle-Eastern wife needs her husband's permission to get a job.

I know a lot of Middle-Eastern culture is vile and cruel nowadays but it was good in the past and I believe it can be good again.

If we force western style feminism on them that would be just as disasterous as forcing democracy on them was. They resent America so they don't want American feminism. That would turn them off the idea of femimism completely.

Western culture didn't have feminism forced onto it from some outside culture. The west produced it's own feminists. The Middle-East must produce it's own feminists too.

They who grew up in those lands with a full understand of the culture, they can invent a Middle-Eastern style feminism better suited to their own culture. Yes, many Middle-Eastern men will oppose it just as many Western men opposed women's sufferage but I believe they will prevail in time so long as the Middle-Easterners see it as their own idea and not an American import.


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14 Mar 2017, 8:52 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Feminists love to encourage gender stereotypes such as the rich arrogant man and the weak helpless woman.

Feminists often exhibit misogyny by falsely portraying women as weak and helpless.

Another form of feminist misogyny is saying women are unable to give consent, lowering women to the status of children.

I have heard that before and I agree. I really wish feminism could trickle down to places like Saudi Arabia. The funny thing is I see feminist supporting radical Muslims.

Yes they do support radical Muslims. Take a look at this!

The Middle-East needs feminism but I don't think it would be a smart idea to force Western style feminism on the Middle East. Western style feminism is optomised for the West. It was developed without Middle Eastern culture in mind.

If we force Western ideas on the Middle-East it may have unforseen consequences. For example, it may seem appalling to us that in some Middle_Eastern countries a married woman must have her husbands permission to work. If we abollished that law blindly it would cause problems. In their culture the man must provide for his family 100%. That means if his wife has a job, none of her salary goes on family expenses, not even her own. Her entire salary goes into her savings account. If a woman gets a job, she may need to buy and maintain a car to get to work. She may need childcare. In the West, these expenses could come out of her own salary. No problem. In the Middle-East the wife's car and childcare are considered family expenses and so must be paid for by the husband. So if his salary goes on normal family expenses, if his wife got a job he would have to get a second job just to pay for her childcare and car insurance. Unbeknown to most westerners, it is for reasons like this that a Middle-Eastern wife needs her husband's permission to get a job.

I know a lot of Middle-Eastern culture is vile and cruel nowadays but it was good in the past and I believe it can be good again.

If we force western style feminism on them that would be just as disasterous as forcing democracy on them was. They resent America so they don't want American feminism. That would turn them off the idea of femimism completely.

Western culture didn't have feminism forced onto it from some outside culture. The west produced it's own feminists. The Middle-East must produce it's own feminists too.

They who grew up in those lands with a full understand of the culture, they can invent a Middle-Eastern style feminism better suited to their own culture. Yes, many Middle-Eastern men will oppose it just as many Western men opposed women's sufferage but I believe they will prevail in time so long as the Middle-Easterners see it as their own idea and not an American import.

I would say we should encourage middle eastern women to stand up for themselves, like Malala.



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14 Mar 2017, 9:31 am

BettaPonic wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Feminists love to encourage gender stereotypes such as the rich arrogant man and the weak helpless woman.

Feminists often exhibit misogyny by falsely portraying women as weak and helpless.

Another form of feminist misogyny is saying women are unable to give consent, lowering women to the status of children.

I have heard that before and I agree. I really wish feminism could trickle down to places like Saudi Arabia. The funny thing is I see feminist supporting radical Muslims.

Yes they do support radical Muslims. Take a look at this!

The Middle-East needs feminism but I don't think it would be a smart idea to force Western style feminism on the Middle East. Western style feminism is optomised for the West. It was developed without Middle Eastern culture in mind.

If we force Western ideas on the Middle-East it may have unforseen consequences. For example, it may seem appalling to us that in some Middle_Eastern countries a married woman must have her husbands permission to work. If we abollished that law blindly it would cause problems. In their culture the man must provide for his family 100%. That means if his wife has a job, none of her salary goes on family expenses, not even her own. Her entire salary goes into her savings account. If a woman gets a job, she may need to buy and maintain a car to get to work. She may need childcare. In the West, these expenses could come out of her own salary. No problem. In the Middle-East the wife's car and childcare are considered family expenses and so must be paid for by the husband. So if his salary goes on normal family expenses, if his wife got a job he would have to get a second job just to pay for her childcare and car insurance. Unbeknown to most westerners, it is for reasons like this that a Middle-Eastern wife needs her husband's permission to get a job.

I know a lot of Middle-Eastern culture is vile and cruel nowadays but it was good in the past and I believe it can be good again.

If we force western style feminism on them that would be just as disasterous as forcing democracy on them was. They resent America so they don't want American feminism. That would turn them off the idea of femimism completely.

Western culture didn't have feminism forced onto it from some outside culture. The west produced it's own feminists. The Middle-East must produce it's own feminists too.

They who grew up in those lands with a full understand of the culture, they can invent a Middle-Eastern style feminism better suited to their own culture. Yes, many Middle-Eastern men will oppose it just as many Western men opposed women's sufferage but I believe they will prevail in time so long as the Middle-Easterners see it as their own idea and not an American import.

I would say we should encourage middle eastern women to stand up for themselves, like Malala.


And respect the fact that many of them are content with how things are.

Let's not forget that there were plenty of Western women who opposed suffrage too. The issue wasn't rooted in sex but in culture.



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14 Mar 2017, 9:52 am

BettaPonic wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Then you plan to put forth the policies which will accomplish your society that is blind to differences?

Policies are useless in my opinion for changing this stuff. I think the best way is restructuring the education system.

That's a policy, but not specific enough to be debated. How would you restructure it?


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14 Mar 2017, 12:46 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Then you plan to put forth the policies which will accomplish your society that is blind to differences?

Policies are useless in my opinion for changing this stuff. I think the best way is restructuring the education system.

That's a policy, but not specific enough to be debated. How would you restructure it?

I think the majority of problems minority's face is because a lot live in overcrowded cities with lack of education. I think restructuring the education system is a good way to get more minority's in college, employment, politics, and business. I don't think anti discrimination bills would accomplish anything. I think things like Affirmative Action benefit minority's who could graduate highsschool not those in overcrowded cities.