The absurdity of Christianity

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So slaughtering your people to make an example or sacrifice your own child is bad?!

You don't say.





Get your paranoid persecution complex out of here!

Nobody hates you or wants to get you banned for your religion. The point is to get you to confront and critically examine the contradictions in your belied system. Either God is good and Bible is full of lies, or the Bible is true and God is evil. You can't have it both ways. Muslims are just an example of a different group of people that's relevant to modern times. I don't think that you or most Christians have any ill intent towards Muslims or any other group, or at least I hope not. Christians like yourself who want to stay in denial about the violence in Bible often brush it off as being "from the Old Testament" or "not relevant to modern times". But there is nothing special or unique about modern Christians or ancient Israelites. The God of the Old Testament is still the same God of the New Testament. And therefore since he commanded violence and genocide in the past he remains culpable for that. The point was create a mental exercise in which you place yourself in the shoes of the ancient Israelites when God commanded these genocides, so that you would have to confront the moral issues you so desperately want to avoid. It is not an attempt to get you banned from the site.

If you responded "No, it is not moral to obey God when he commands the slaughter of children" then you wouldn't have gotten in any trouble at all. The question you need to ask yourself is "why can't I just say that"?



What I'm trying to get you to understand is that's exactly what you are failing to do. If you were to examine the Bible with reason instead of your emotions, you would clearly see all the moral problems the rest of do. You're letting you fear of the truth cloud your judgement.

It’s foolish to think of the Bible purely literally.

It is a multifaceted work produced by many authors in many literary genres.

Depends on what you mean. Not all of the Bible is meant to be literally true. Proverbs are riddles and paradox. They are true. But the intention is for the reader to ponder in what sense they are true and for people to talk about them. Psalms are songs that are written as an art form to express a theological truth. Sometimes they are meant literally, other times not, but either way they have to be understood in terms of what they are. Context matters.

The debate on what and how much of the Old Testament applies to Christians overlooks the fact that when God gave the Tanakh it was written down by Hebrew people for Hebrew people. It was not concerned about other nations. It certainly didn’t have Christians in view. Beyond the borders of Israel, people have to make up their own minds in terms of identity, law and order, etc. Circumcision, for example. The Jewish practice of circumcision isn’t as easy as giving a baby what amounts to the nastiest paper cut ever. It’s an entire ritual. The requirement for circumcision was a sticking point for converting the Greeks. Dietary laws would be another one of those things.

But laws regarding keeping people safe and maintaining order in society? Those are going to evolve and change with society. Letting the punishment fit the crime, equivalence, is the cornerstone principle of Hebrew law as well as laws in Western society. Civilizations that predate the Hebrew nation already practiced this long before God told Moses to write it down and pass it along to the Israelites.

Christians are not supposed to pick and choose what’s expedient to us. The problem is in understanding which laws apply strictly to the Jews and which apply more universally. The sacrifice Jesus made on the cross cancelled the need for blood sacrifice. Sacrifice is actually not outlawed for Christians. It’s just not necessary. OT sacrifices could only be offered at specific places at specific times and required someone from the priest class to perform the actual sacrificial ritual. The proper place for these sacrifices no longer exists, so not even Jews are allowed to make them. Laws regarding slaves are moot where prohibitions on slavery exist, and no Biblical law prohibits abolition. No Biblical law requires slaves, either. The Bible doesn’t outright forbid slavery, either, which reflects the realities of the ancient world in which people were enslaved. But laws regarding involuntary servitude in Israel comes with the reminder that “you were slaves in Egypt.” This allowed enslaving foreigners. Enslaving fellow Israelites except under special circumstances was forbidden. Servitude as a means of punishment or repaying damages was allowed. People were allowed to become professional servants. People were allowed to pledge themselves to a master by literally nailing themselves to the door. The confusion over the Biblical allowance of slavery in Israel was used to justify slavery in the United States. If you are not Jewish, then how and if you are going to justify slavery is going to be a product of your own society and culture, not Biblical mandate. Because we are not Jews, the Bible leaves that question open.

Holy war? Again, that law applies strictly to protecting the borders of Israel. Expansionism was never the focus of Biblical foreign policy. Alliances were not prohibited and actually encouraged, “...you will lend and never borrow...,” and Solomon’s reign was characterized by a de facto empire negotiated through peaceful trade agreements. Christians are defined by their adherence to Christ’s teachings. Jesus emphasized peaceful relations with neighbors, so the role of government in waging war is defined by the individual government and is by nature extra-Biblical.

Detailed laws and rituals were rendered moot for Christians for a number of reasons not worthy of a post that’s just going to end up tl;dr anyway. Short version: it’s improper and unfair to accuse Christians of cherry-picking when much of it involves things Christians couldn’t properly obey even if they wanted to. Not even the Jews have the ability to follow certain laws. I’m not overlooking how nominal Christians may actually cherry-pick Bible passages to suit an unbiblical purpose. There are people who call themselves Christians who do not have the best interests of others in mind. The Catholic Church didn’t keep a monopoly on cruelty when it came to selectively enforcing Biblical laws. Christians can’t today say homosexuality is bad and look the other way when Trump treats women poorly and brags about it. Christians cannot hold the belief that “because you were slaves in Egypt” and at the same time make slaves of other people. And you can’t be a Christian justified by grace through faith while trying to justify yourself through works of the law. That means you have to keep every commandment—not just 10 Commandments, but over 600 of them—and every ritual has to be performed flawlessly (refer to the Pharisees asking Jesus why His disciples didn’t wash their hands before a meal). Which is it? Are we people of faith or are we people of the law? Christianity practiced outside a Jewish context doesn’t provide a framework for being both. Paul was quite thorough in explaining this in his letters.

You are not being honest. You are asking me as a person what I would do in being Biblically consistent in a context that does not exist in any meaningful way. I can answer the question if it is framed in terms of what the Bible says about it. WP site rules do not allow me to comment on whether violence against anyone is moral or justified. I’m good enough exploiting loopholes to say things that make people uncomfortable. Guess what? Lots of things in the Bible are uncomfortable. Doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it. By making it personal the way you have, I don’t have the same loophole that allows me to discuss it. I’m also not allowed to defend things like punishing homosexuals or exterminating other religious groups. You can attack me all you want, but I’m not going to respond when what you’re doing is an attempt to provoke me into saying something that violates site rules. What you’re doing is not simply a matter of some imaginary persecution complex. It’s outright harassment.

All this "do not pick and choose in the Bible"-thing really makes me wonder:

How then, do you explain the canonizations of the Bible? Some scriptures were left out/banned/censored while others made their way into the Bible/NT.

I'm perfectly fine with Christians and Christianity in general, as long as they understand that the Bible is nothing more than a book written by HUMANS!

HUMANS has already done the picking-and-choosing of the Bible and the New Testament.

As for my original question to AngelRho, whether he'd really park his brain and conscience in the parking lot (he never replied to that one), let me remind you all of the teachings of Jesus:

Source: Gospel of Thomas, a gospel left out of the New Testament.
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

This saying can only be interpreted as you need to follow your own conscience. If you do not follow your own conscience, but only do what you're told to do, even when it is morally/ethically wrong (ie. genocide, murdering innocents etc.) it will ruin your life.

I think a lot of these sayings are already incorporated in the official NT gospels.

In regards to the current state of Christianity in the world, only one verse from the Bible applies.

"Jesus wept." -- Gospel of John, chapter 11, verse 35 (NIV)

^^^

---

Hehe, Heaven Forbid
In 'Some Places' HAha...

A Story i Just Wrote
Before i Visit Here NoW As
Synchronicity Naturally Flows With No

Separation In Creativity Now (at least for me)

When We Become the Stories We tale

It's Okay to Tell A Story To Go Deeper

It's Also Okay to Ignore one now too...

Relative Free Will Surely Allows That too...

Yet It's True Unlimited Versions of Jesus
Interpreted Do Exist in one Poetry Book
of Many Different Descriptions It's Up to

Us To Determine Who We Wanna Be When
We Read The Stories of Others... More often
Who We Have Already Come to Be Determines Who

We May See in Others Similar too...

So Here's Another Deeper Story...

Weeping Jesus Art

Portrays Not Grief Yet

Spiritual Frission Tears

Water Ocean on Fire

Waves Thanks Giving

For Giving Now

Communion With

A World of Loving So Far

Away From Meaningless Strife…

Imagine If ‘Christian’ Really Means

A Family of Weeds Just One Photo

Is More Than A Thousand Words of Poetry

What Will A Full Family Album of Raising Weeds

For Freedom’s Fearless LoVE Dance Sing For Me Just
An Epiphany What Makes

Me Different

From So Many

Other People

Is My Mother Born

On December 10th Sharing
That Birthday With 'You' Still

You Do So Well too

Raising Us Weeds
Free to Be Whoever
We Are

Eventually

Sadly She Became

A Different Person

A Different Religion

No Longer Raising Weeds

Not Able to Accept All of the

Weed my Sister Was Then Discarding

Parts that Made Her Whole Complete Enough…
SMiLes The Light of Your

Little Boy Able

To Grow His

Hair As Long as

He Loves Smiling Playing

As Much As He Wants Obviously
With No Father Looking At Him

In Disgust When He Cries Over
A ‘Crew Cut’ Forced on Him

Peer Raised Fists

Spitting on

Him to
Take the
Light of His SMiLes
Away You Would Never

Do That to A Child of God

As You Are A Weed Like A

Real Jesus Not One Who Would

Send Weeds to HeLL ON Earth

Not One Who Would

Need to Be

Worshipped

To Feel Whole And Complete

Enough Just one Weed Flowering

Enough to Raise Other Weeds to Be Free

Has Any Body Told You YOU Are Jesus Lately

i Surely Don’t

Mind Telling

You The Good News

You Put People
And Family First

And Flowering

Weeds Free

Of Earth’s

Garden Alive

Do Realize How

Rare it Is to Meet

'Jesus' Any Place ‘These Days’…

What Comes Around Goes Around

No Matter How Much my Mother Changed

i Still Loved The Weed of Her No Matter What…

Love is Not A Virtue That Gives Up When Real

Love Not is Not A Virtue That Requires Worship
Not Even Reciprocation When Real Love Always

Forgives There

Is No Exception

Now or Then When

LoVE Really Loves

God Is Love

Surely

More Than

Me Never Will i Believe

In A God of Love More or
Less Than Below Or Above a Grain of Sand
Holding Up All Mountains of Human Love Still To BReATHE
i Hope Your Son Becomes Love Enough to Give When The

Rest of the

World

Does

Its

'Damness'
To Take the
Light Away From His EYes
Save These Photos For Him
For If So He May Then Find His

Way Back Beyond A Thousand Poetic

Words A Photo of A Child With God’s EYes Love…

And Of Course All of That Comes From You Shawna With SMiLes…

Thank

You For

MaKinG Jesus Real…
All Worth LoVE NoW

---

There’s never been a serious question about canonicity. The Bible existed long before the printing press and in the form of collections of scrolls. Those that were used the most often, such as the Books of Moses, were foundational in establishing both the Hebrew faith and the nation of Israel. There’s never been a question that Hebrews as the nation grew would be concerned with Torah as a both a governing document and as a guide to righteousness and ethnic identity, and the main qualifications for canon is Hebrew source and divine inspiration. Confirmed prophecies are also included. Wisdom writings, palace records, other histories, and writings of confirmed prophets are also included. The gospels follow the same patterns, except with the added qualification of having an apostolic source. The gospel of Thomas is questionable on numerous grounds, is out of character with canonic writings, and is generally regarded as a later authorship. It was used in support of the Manichean heresy. Canonical writings even warn of false teachings, and that was recorded even before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. When not even the Catholic Church will even consider it as included apocrypha, there is likely a very good reason.

Christianity in terms of what you practice and believe, or ChristianityTM in terms of religion? Whatever disagreements we have, we’re on the same page regarding religion.

The Republican ideal, for example...

Chuck Norris is Jesus?

I kid.

I see your point.

Hmm... you may be on to something...

•  Chuck Norris  Jesus doesn’t read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.
• Time waits for no man. Unless that man is  Chuck Norris  Jesus.
• If you spell  Chuck Norris  Jesus in Scrabble, you win. Forever.
•  Chuck Norris  Jesus breathes air … five times a day.
• In the Beginning there was nothing … then  Chuck Norris  Jesus roundhouse kicked nothing and told it to get a job.

Is it getting warm in here?


I'M SORRY, JESUS!

That you feel the need to defend punishing homosexuals or exterminating other religious should tell you something is very wrong with your outlook.

If you're worried about violating the rules, then why don't you just simply answer that it is not moral to obey God if he commanded you to kill people? Because we do know with certainty that God has ordered his followers to slaughter children in the past, it is relevant to ask yourself how you would respond in a hypothetical situation in which God demanded the same of you.

No need to post your answers. Just think about them to yourself. If you would disobey such a command, then is that the moral or immoral choice to make? Would that make you morally superior to the ancient Israelites who obeyed such commands? And if so, does that make God immoral for issuing such commands? And if you would obey God, then how are you any different than a Nazi soldier following orders to throw people into gas chambers?

There's no need for anyone other than yourself to know your responses.

Last edited by dorkseid on 14 Jul 2021, 3:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Keep it civil and respectful folks - thanks. I know you can improve the standard of debate here.

In response to Christianity...

I'd say that, if the god portrayed in the Bible is correct, then he's an a$$hole who doesn't deserve worship.

I'm fine with going to Hell if it means I don't have to heap adoration on a monster. Case closed.

That's the christ in America theory right

MAGA Bible Genesis chapter 1: And Chuck did tell King James "Thou shalt let my people go dude!" "Thy seek our holy promised land where we wait for the second messiah" "his hair shalt burn a fiery orange and he will make our holy land great again" "he will purge the unjust who take thy guns, and build a great wall to the sky to keep hell's minions from crossing"