Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Does systemic racism against blacks even exist anymore?

Page 11 of 21 [ 335 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 21  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 115,270
Location: the island of defective toy santas

23 Aug 2021, 9:54 pm

^^that is a keeper :wtg:



vividgroovy
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 20 Dec 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 399
Location: Santa Maria, CA

24 Aug 2021, 12:44 am

auntblabby wrote:
it helps the more idealistic next generation learn how to ameliorate it by first acknowledging it. gotta start somewhere.


I appreciate seeing an optimistic response, especially considering some of the things I'm about to reply to.

cyberdad wrote:
It teaches history and makes grad students at college think critically about cause and effect in American society. The critical thought aspect of CRT in grad school is a form of scientific thinking that a college/university student is supposed to have when they graduate which is what is valuable for companies who employ professional graduates not students who obey orders and regurgitate information.


I hope that the "critical" in the title is actually true in college circles. In my experience among laypeople on the internet, it's used as an excuse to respond to criticism with one-sentence copy-paste ad-hominem attacks instead of addressing what the other person said.

cyberdad wrote:
There's a rather apt line in the movie the Matrix from Agent Smith as he's interrogating Morpheus
Agent Smith: I like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I try to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively creates a natural equilibrium with it's surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure.

I'm guessing this line resonates with native people around the world when they think of how imperial colonists behave on this planet. Systemic power is not just a theory, its a fact.


Agent Smith is literally an agent of oppression justifying his actions with that line. And in the later movies, he himself becomes a virus.

Also, while I dislike the idea of human self-loathing, there is at least a kind of equality to what Smith was saying about ALL of humanity. Whereas you've re-framed it to only be about only one group of humanity to serve your narrative.

uncommondenominator wrote:
Bigotry doesn't have to be hate. It can be as simple as "I don't care".


I care very deeply about very few things. I've always been that way. I don't care about political causes the same way I don't care about religion, sports, romantic relationships and a massive number of other things that society expects a person to care about. I feel like a lot of the bitterness and resentment on the internet comes from the idea that people like me aren't absolutely devastated when your side doesn't win an election, so we get words like "apathy" hurled at us and we're made the scapegoats for everything.



Last edited by vividgroovy on 24 Aug 2021, 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

24 Aug 2021, 12:53 am

vividgroovy wrote:
Agent Smith is literally an agent of oppression justifying his actions with that line. And in the later movies, he himself becomes a virus.


True, but it's not about self-loathing. It's about accepting our nature. Warts and all. Agent Smith was merely throwing human frailty into Morpheus's face.

According to Freud's theory of personality, certain aspects of your personality are more primal and might pressure you to act upon your most basic urges. He posits that to understand yourself, you need to accept the self is multilayered and sometimes prone to these base urges.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

24 Aug 2021, 2:04 am

vividgroovy wrote:
I feel like a lot of the bitterness and resentment on the internet comes from the idea that people like me aren't absolutely devastated when your side doesn't win an election, so we get words like "apathy" hurled at us and we're made the scapegoats for everything.


Partisans hate people they can't neatly put into little boxes more than they hate their designated opponents, it's a phenomenon that knows no political boundary. I still think the left is worse about this, but the right is starting to catch up, though they lack the cultural firepower to really make it stick outside of some very narrow areas.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

24 Aug 2021, 2:32 am

Dox47 wrote:
vividgroovy wrote:
I feel like a lot of the bitterness and resentment on the internet comes from the idea that people like me aren't absolutely devastated when your side doesn't win an election, so we get words like "apathy" hurled at us and we're made the scapegoats for everything.


Partisans hate people they can't neatly put into little boxes more than they hate their designated opponents, it's a phenomenon that knows no political boundary. I still think the left is worse about this, but the right is starting to catch up, though they lack the cultural firepower to really make it stick outside of some very narrow areas.


So these "designated opponents" are free to teach me the "wonders" of being narrow minded, prejudiced and bigoted.



Mr Reynholm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,363
Location: Tulsa, OK

24 Aug 2021, 11:46 am

Dox47 wrote:
vividgroovy wrote:
I feel like a lot of the bitterness and resentment on the internet comes from the idea that people like me aren't absolutely devastated when your side doesn't win an election, so we get words like "apathy" hurled at us and we're made the scapegoats for everything.


Partisans hate people they can't neatly put into little boxes more than they hate their designated opponents, it's a phenomenon that knows no political boundary. I still think the left is worse about this, but the right is starting to catch up, though they lack the cultural firepower to really make it stick outside of some very narrow areas.

True.
They also assume they know everything about the person in the box.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

24 Aug 2021, 12:05 pm

cyberdad wrote:
So these "designated opponents" are free to teach me the "wonders" of being narrow minded, prejudiced and bigoted.


You seem to be doing just fine on your own in that respect.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Mr Reynholm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,363
Location: Tulsa, OK

24 Aug 2021, 12:59 pm

If the system is rigged to prevent blacks from achieving how do we explain having a black president for TWO terms? How do we explain black Americans in positions of importance and influence in government, media, the military, industry and academia? Didn't they get the memo that they were oppressed and can't succeed?



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

24 Aug 2021, 1:20 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
If the system is rigged to prevent blacks from achieving how do we explain having a black president for TWO terms? How do we explain black Americans in positions of importance and influence in government, media, the military, industry and academia? Didn't they get the memo that they were oppressed and can't succeed?


Almost everything the modern left believes is about race is better explained by class, which is funny, because I learned that from the old left. Now, if you want to get into why certain races are disproportionately represented in the lower classes, that's a conversation, but this "everything is about race" attitude is both incorrect and counterproductive, the only thing it accomplishes is giving white people feelings of virtue.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Mr Reynholm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,363
Location: Tulsa, OK

24 Aug 2021, 2:48 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
If the system is rigged to prevent blacks from achieving how do we explain having a black president for TWO terms? How do we explain black Americans in positions of importance and influence in government, media, the military, industry and academia? Didn't they get the memo that they were oppressed and can't succeed?


Almost everything the modern left believes is about race is better explained by class, which is funny, because I learned that from the old left. Now, if you want to get into why certain races are disproportionately represented in the lower classes, that's a conversation, but this "everything is about race" attitude is both incorrect and counterproductive, the only thing it accomplishes is giving white people feelings of virtue.

I agree. Culture on the family level is what I believe is the greatest indicator of success for the individual.



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

24 Aug 2021, 2:54 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
If the system is rigged to prevent blacks from achieving how do we explain having a black president for TWO terms? How do we explain black Americans in positions of importance and influence in government, media, the military, industry and academia? Didn't they get the memo that they were oppressed and can't succeed?


Almost everything the modern left believes is about race is better explained by class, which is funny, because I learned that from the old left. Now, if you want to get into why certain races are disproportionately represented in the lower classes, that's a conversation, but this "everything is about race" attitude is both incorrect and counterproductive, the only thing it accomplishes is giving white people feelings of virtue.

A problem is the American denial that class matters here. Anybody can become President, or Horatio Alger blah, blah, blah. We love to point to billionaires who started out dirt poor and went to non elite public colleges or better yet no college at all. We are not as class based the British where I understand the Beatles will always be considered working class because that is what they were born into. Not as class based does not mean class is not important. The person growing up poor in America arguably has a better chance at getting the opportunity to become wealthy than in many other countries but people like that are still outliers. We have a class based education system in the form of prep schools and the Ivy league. If you come from the right family background you can be dumb as a rock and get into a prep school, Ivy league university school and have a nice paying job awaiting you which is not true for most of us.

The old left and the woke left make the same mistake of focusing on just one thing. The difference is on what that thing is. What these factions of the left miss is that is the combination of race, class, and personality and indiviual circumstance that determines how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have. Many conservatives are in denial or greatly underestimate the importance of these factors.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


Mr Reynholm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,363
Location: Tulsa, OK

24 Aug 2021, 5:18 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
If the system is rigged to prevent blacks from achieving how do we explain having a black president for TWO terms? How do we explain black Americans in positions of importance and influence in government, media, the military, industry and academia? Didn't they get the memo that they were oppressed and can't succeed?


Almost everything the modern left believes is about race is better explained by class, which is funny, because I learned that from the old left. Now, if you want to get into why certain races are disproportionately represented in the lower classes, that's a conversation, but this "everything is about race" attitude is both incorrect and counterproductive, the only thing it accomplishes is giving white people feelings of virtue.

A problem is the American denial that class matters here. Anybody can become President, or Horatio Alger blah, blah, blah. We love to point to billionaires who started out dirt poor and went to non elite public colleges or better yet no college at all. We are not as class based the British where I understand the Beatles will always be considered working class because that is what they were born into. Not as class based does not mean class is not important. The person growing up poor in America arguably has a better chance at getting the opportunity to become wealthy than in many other countries but people like that are still outliers. We have a class based education system in the form of prep schools and the Ivy league. If you come from the right family background you can be dumb as a rock and get into a prep school, Ivy league university school and have a nice paying job awaiting you which is not true for most of us.

The old left and the woke left make the same mistake of focusing on just one thing. The difference is on what that thing is. What these factions of the left miss is that is the combination of race, class, and personality and indiviual circumstance that determines how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have. Many conservatives are in denial or greatly underestimate the importance of these factors.

Very True. Class is a thing.
My view of it is that the individual is the one who has the most power over their own lives.
People are not identical automatons off an assembly line. People are born with the hand they are dealt such as differences in background, wealth, family, race, class, appearance, intelligence, ability, temperament, ect. in most cases these things can be changed by the individual themselves others can't. Making certain people out to be helpless victims locks them into a mentality that they are at the mercy of their oppressors and need to be rescued. The best way to set someone up for failure is to make them believe they are a victim.



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

24 Aug 2021, 6:00 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
If the system is rigged to prevent blacks from achieving how do we explain having a black president for TWO terms? How do we explain black Americans in positions of importance and influence in government, media, the military, industry and academia? Didn't they get the memo that they were oppressed and can't succeed?


Almost everything the modern left believes is about race is better explained by class, which is funny, because I learned that from the old left. Now, if you want to get into why certain races are disproportionately represented in the lower classes, that's a conversation, but this "everything is about race" attitude is both incorrect and counterproductive, the only thing it accomplishes is giving white people feelings of virtue.

A problem is the American denial that class matters here. Anybody can become President, or Horatio Alger blah, blah, blah. We love to point to billionaires who started out dirt poor and went to non elite public colleges or better yet no college at all. We are not as class based the British where I understand the Beatles will always be considered working class because that is what they were born into. Not as class based does not mean class is not important. The person growing up poor in America arguably has a better chance at getting the opportunity to become wealthy than in many other countries but people like that are still outliers. We have a class based education system in the form of prep schools and the Ivy league. If you come from the right family background you can be dumb as a rock and get into a prep school, Ivy league university school and have a nice paying job awaiting you which is not true for most of us.

The old left and the woke left make the same mistake of focusing on just one thing. The difference is on what that thing is. What these factions of the left miss is that is the combination of race, class, and personality and indiviual circumstance that determines how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have. Many conservatives are in denial or greatly underestimate the importance of these factors.

Very True. Class is a thing.
My view of it is that the individual is the one who has the most power over their own lives.
People are not identical automatons off an assembly line. People are born with the hand they are dealt such as differences in background, wealth, family, race, class, appearance, intelligence, ability, temperament, ect. in most cases these things can be changed by the individual themselves others can't. Making certain people out to be helpless victims locks them into a mentality that they are at the mercy of their oppressors and need to be rescued. The best way to set someone up for failure is to make them believe they are a victim.

Yep to a point. Some people are victims. The problem with various “woke” world views is they define people as victims and assume people are victims based on accident of birth.

A combination of disadvantages and personal qualities means there are plenty of people who can’t overcome these disadvantages. To overcome disadvantages one has to both know what they are and not be dismissive of them. If you do not respect the challenges of disadvantages and think it is only about trying harder you are trying to overcome dumbly.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

24 Aug 2021, 7:25 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The old left and the woke left make the same mistake of focusing on just one thing.


True, but as I've said, I think if you're going to emphasize one thing, class works much better than race if you're trying to keep things simple. I'd much rather be rich and black than poor and white, for example, or even upper middle class and black than poor and white, and I'm not sure that a poor black person is actually that much worse off than a poor white person. Certainly there are things where race does play a role, interactions with the police being the obvious one (mostly abuse rather than killings despite what the media says), but the racial determinism preached and practiced by an increasingly large swath of the left and those they can coerce into it is every bit as detrimental as the race blindness of many conservatives, if not more so.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

25 Aug 2021, 12:14 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The old left and the woke left make the same mistake of focusing on just one thing. The difference is on what that thing is. What these factions of the left miss is that is the combination of race, class, and personality and indiviual circumstance that determines how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have. Many conservatives are in denial or greatly underestimate the importance of these factors.


Lefties prioritise being responsible stewards for the planet which includes looking after the downtrodden and dispossessed.

The right prioritise extracting every drop out of this planet and letting the strongest rule at the expense of the weakest. Epitome of rugged individualism.



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

25 Aug 2021, 9:39 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The old left and the woke left make the same mistake of focusing on just one thing. The difference is on what that thing is. What these factions of the left miss is that is the combination of race, class, and personality and indiviual circumstance that determines how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have. Many conservatives are in denial or greatly underestimate the importance of these factors.


Lefties prioritise being responsible stewards for the planet which includes looking after the downtrodden and dispossessed.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

cyberdad wrote:
The right prioritise extracting every drop out of this planet and letting the strongest rule at the expense of the weakest. Epitome of rugged individualism.

While despite what the late Barry Goldwater said extremism is a vice a degree of rugged individualism is a good thing for autistic people. Not conforming and doing our own thing is how we are wired. As a small minority we need some ruggedness to survive all the disadvantages.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.