Should the government make vaccination compulsory?

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But if the leader cannot control everyone, then what's he going to do really?

Try?

That's why he's in a position of power and leadership. He's not going to just give up and quit.

Wtf?

I'm not saying give up and quit and I'm just saying face that you cannot win everyone and just lead the people you can lead. Trump realized he couldn't get everyone on his side, but he didn't quit, he just chose the ones that liked him and lead with them and accepted it more it seemed? But that's just an example.

But even it's Biden job to win everyone over, it seems that restricting them from privileges is only alienating them more, so lifting restrictions would win them over more most likely. If you what are you are doing is alienating some people, it only makes sense to to do the opposite and give them what they want?

Why should Biden, or any world leader, do the opposite of what scientists and public health officials advise them to do?

If you haven’t noticed, in the USA, places where people believe covid & science are real, people are vaccinated and generally abiding by mitigation measures and as a result fewer people are sick or dying. In areas where ignorant people have been manipulated into believing covid is a democrat hoax and the vaccines are poison, people are getting sick and dying from covid at way higher rates.

What benefit would there be to Biden or the USA to go along with that nonsense?

They’re already at 826,000 dead and will certainly top 1M Americans dead from covid - why do things to increase that number just to appease some antivaxxers/covid isn’t real types?

Those are fair points there. So is there a way to convince people that think that the vaccine is a democratic hoax, is not? For example, Trump rushed in these vaccines before the democrats were elected, so why would people believe it's a democrate hoax if the republicans rushed them in beforehand?

This is partially true. We have a high rates of vaccination and mask-wearing and yet Omicron is running wild straining and threatening essential services. While increasing hospitalization and death rates are well below past surges they spike after case numbers. While I am cautiously optimistic the hospitalizations and deaths will be below past surges when this surge is over, the surge is anything but over.


Ask the Republican party.

Well this is what I mean is that people still think they can beat covid even though it keeps surging, instead of just accepting it as part of life now like any other disease. Why can't people admit defeat. Is it an ego thing?

I think if the disease is serious enough then mandatory vaccinations can be justified, even if there hasn't been time for the vaccine to go through the usual testing phase. But I don't believe that's the case with covid.

I myself have had three jabs already. I wasn't exactly pleased about having three doses of a relatively rushed vaccine injected into my arm (thinking about the small but non-zero chance of serious side-effects), but I don't see why the vaccine would be any more dangerous than the disease.

However, I can understand why some people are reluctant to get vaccinated, especially now it's becoming clear that firstly the omicron variant produces nothing more than the sniffles in the vast majority of people, and that secondly the majority of the statistics we have been fed about covid (at least here in the UK) are meaningless.

The media tell us that "cases are rising" without explaining that those case numbers are just a function of the number of people getting tested, and without telling us how many of those "cases" involve serious illness. We keep hearing about the number of people "in hospital with covid" without being told if they were actually hospitalised because of covid or because of something else. And all through the pandemic we've had people being wrongly classified as "covid deaths" when they died of something else (I personally know people this has happened to, and I have read about many other cases).

I remember when the pandemic first started, when it wasn't clear how serious the disease was, I personally was quite annoyed to see the knee-jerk anti-interventionist stance of many libertarian types (some of them probably would have made the same arguments about smallpox), but I think after all this time it's safe to say that covid does not justify mandatory vaccinations or more lockdowns.

As an aside, I think it's interesting how many of the most covid-alarmist liberal types still don't seem to have amended their stance on illegal immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers etc. I somehow doubt many of those people are vaccinated compared to the Western populations they are joining.

Do the Conservatives, the Fundamentalists, and the QAnonites realize that by refusing the COVID vaccines, they are risking the eventual reduction of their kind through slow and agonizing death?  Do they not realize that the rest of us who have received the COVID vaccines are likely to outlive a significant portion of their number?  Are they not concerned that they may not have enough voters left to put their "Messiah" Trump back into the White House?

It's a viral pandemic science thing. Nerds have informed us that we need to just wait - give it time - the virus will mutate and weaken and fizzle out. Then it'll just be another cold/flu virus like all the others that started out as really nasty new viruses that harmed a lot of people.

So, yes, covid is endemic and will be with us.. but we're supposed to make efforts to mitigate the damage while it's still strong, and then it'll fizzle out and everyone can relax about it since it'll cause sniffles and fevers, not lungs gelling up and people dying.

It's not an ego thing. It's a science thing. Covid is getting weaker for sure, so it's just a matter of time until it fizzles out and fades away. Many nerds are now saying they expect the mutate and fizzle out process to take another 3-6 months.

1. How can anyone die from a hoax?

2. Obvi the vaccine is poison and it's all of us vaccinated folks that are going to die. Duh.

Jeez.

Covid vaccines weren't rushed, they were expedited. The mrna platform was two decades in the making. The testing periods for the covid vaccines were the same as any others - they just cut out the waiting periods in between that are typically for companies to wait and see if there's still a market for their vaccine product.. governments bankrolled the project and told big pharma just do your thing, we'll pay for it. So, with zero financial risk, they just did the work and completed the tests w/o the lag periods waiting to see if they could sell their finished product or not.

^ and yet they say they were untested. The question for me, is who benefits from pushing the myth that the vaccine is harmful and that COVID is harmless? Someone is pushing this narrative but why? It seems like they shouldn't be able to gain any benefit from killing their own customers/voters but they must have found a way to make it useful for them or they wouldn't do it.

I think it just comes down to who you are and who you listen to. Democrats suffer from the problem of being controlled by white people yet purporting to represent minorities. Getting the minority vote is kinda their thing.

Within minority demographics, you have a subset of people who, for whatever reasons, are distrustful of white people. You can’t address a minority agenda through the Democratic Party because it’s controlled by white people, and you most certainly won’t get help from Republicans. There’s a sense of cultural isolation, and for them the vaccine just represents another level of control. And your blue collar conservatives have never really had much trust in government to begin with.

IF, and I stress IF anyone stands to gain anything from pushing the narrative, it’s those already in power. If distrust of white Democrats catches on, white Democrats lose an entire institution and power structure. And Republicans just like their jobs. If more working-class Republicans are influencing the vote, that means Republicans have to actually DO something besides oppose Democrats. As it stands right now, tinfoil hats and QAnon get a lot of press coverage right now, but they really have that strong a voice when it comes to making policy. Republicans are too afraid that they will. So if they push the narrative that the vaccine is dangerous and people die as a result, because of which ones of their people are dying, they get to maintain their hold on the establishment.

People who are going to support Republicans are going to support them no matter what, so Republicans don’t feel all that threatened. If tinfoil hats and QAnon are dying, it just means fewer people around to make noise. It won’t impact voting in unwanted ways. If they are still alive, they could eventually have an influence on the makeup of the party, and that would ultimately result in significant changes to the party itself.

Same goes for Democrats. They’ll pay lip service to CRT, BLM, etc., but when the rubber meets the road and they risk losing their votes, Democrats aren’t going to miss them.

Neither party would miss them. The problem they have is if they don’t like their own party and the other side doesn’t support them either, if they vote third party, will it make enough of a difference? It won’t. And so more often than not many of these people just don’t vote at all. What would be the point? Both parties could live just as well or better if they just go away.

I don’t actually believe that’s what’s happening, though. I think what’s happening is you have so many Americans surviving COVID with it being no more severe than a cold that people are incredulous as to its severity. They don’t feel it should be taken so seriously. At least not until someone they love dies from it, and then who’s going to believe them?

The other thing is that new vaccines are thoroughly studied and tested long before they are made available, and that’s assuming they haven’t already been available for a long time. So it is a fact that people are getting this vaccine without the benefit of experience with its effectiveness. People are used to the idea that FDA approval means a drug is safe to use, and for a long time no COVID vaccine had FDA approval. I’m not even sure which ones have approval now. For the average American, conventional understanding of diseases and prevention has been completely turned on its head.

Breakout cases don’t help people’s confidence in the vaccine, either. I’ve had several friends diagnosed with COVID after getting fully vaxxed AND boosted, so I can see how it might be hard to justify even getting it in the first place. My position is I’d rather have it if it makes my life and work easier. I just dislike the idea of being unable to choose based on whether I want the vax or not.

Same difference.



I'm not talking about the mrna platform. I'm talking about the specific covid vaccines themselves (whether mrna based or viral vector). For example, when new vaccines are developed, there is supposed to be an exploratory stage lasting 2 to 4 years (often involving tests on animals and so on). This won't have happened if the covid virus first came to light around December 2019 and the first vaccines were rolled out around December 2020.



Some people might say they were untested, but that’s not what I was saying. I was saying the testing that did take place won’t have been done in the usual way (in terms of length of time and so on).



Again, I am not pushing the idea that the vaccine is more harmful than the COVID virus if that’s what you are implying. I have already explained that I believe the opposite to be true.

I do have some ideas on why some of the most extreme anti-vax positions are being pushed, but I think it might make liberals uncomfortable to follow that rabbit hole all the way down – it’s far easier and more satisfying for liberals to point and sputter at the professional clowns in the conservative movement than it is for them to follow the money.

Let’s just say it’s not about appealing for votes; it’s about controlling the discourse. It’s about getting right-leaning people to embrace libertarianism instead of striving for state and collective power. Getting right-wingers to believe nonsense about Bill Gates wanting to depopulate the planet is a good way of distracting them from what global elites are really doing (i.e., opening up the borders of the West to third world immigration, promoting degeneracy, outsourcing work to places like China, asset stripping, arranging government bailouts for failing financial institutions, and so on). One would expect right-wingers to respond to a global pandemic by calling for stricter immigration controls, but large numbers of right-wingers have responded by calling for greater freedom of movement instead.

The extreme covid alarmists at the other end of the spectrum aren’t helping matters either, and they have their own motivations for making covid out to be more dangerous than it is, even if those reasons are as mundane as trying to justify all the resources that were diverted to fighting the pandemic from the start.

Last edited by slam_thunderhide on 04 Jan 2022, 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In the USA it’s the Republican Party and their propaganda arms at fox news and oan/newsmax etc.

It’s very simple stuff. They politicized covid and made it a left vs right us vs them issue. They benefit by having psychological control of their constituents in order to manipulate them into doing whatever they want - vote for trump/republicans, overthrow the US government and install a republican dictator etc.

If they can make them believe covid and election lied then they can make them believe and do anything - all they had to do was make it us vs them and get people to dig in their heels and pick a side - no matter how stupid or unbelievable it is to anyone with 2 functioning brain cells, it’s highly effective when they’re preconvinced to believe whatever the us side is in us vs them.