Pro or anti abortion?

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I appreciate LeKewi bringing the emotional human aspect to this complex issue. I disagree with her on other issues, but I am in complete agreement with her on this one. An abortion is a terrible process for anyone, and the implication (that I see fairly often) that the legality of abortions will "encourage" more careless sense is both offensive and shows a blatant lack of understanding of what a person undergoing an abortion goes through.

She made a tough, but mature decision and for that I respect her.

Thanks.


And Meowpurr, I see what you mean. I'd be inclined to say they're somewhat sociopathic too, because in my experience it's probably the most horrendous thing you can do, and I would be prepared to say that if it really was that easy then no, they have no heart. In my case, it was the only real option I could go for, so in that sense the decision was logically easy, but that doesn't mean in any way that it's an easy decision. It was a living nightmare, the worst experience I've been through, and if there was any other option I would have taken it and had the child at the time - again, that's the body taking over and the hormones protecting the developing form taking over. I don't know how anyone could experience that and say it was an easy decision!!

All said and done, and despite my experience, I'm very much in the time-limit camp on this one. I'd be much happier if a limit of, say, 14 to 16 weeks was brought in, with the exception of cases where the mother or child are at serious risk - enough time to find out and to make your decision. I don't know how anyone could condone aborting what is, in effect, a baby in the third trimester that could survive if it was born at that point. What I got rid of was a tiny little sac with the beginnings of a human form in it, but no organs or brain or anything - what you're getting rid of at, say, 25 or 30 weeks is a little person. Just adopt it out for goodness sakes if you've got it that far!

the reason why they kicked out NAMBLA was because the ILGA was under pressure from the UN to do so or they would lose their recognition as a group by UN.
And it was people like Nambla in the world who stood at the cradle of ILGA. Stinks for thanks I would say so

@ LeKiwi Thanks for sharing your experiences, lets hope those prolifers who believe that a pregnat woman waltzes into a clinic to joyfully get an abortion read that and maybe gets a better understanding of the pyscologial damage that they and their plackards are doing.

@ Meowpurr, BRAINWASHED you know nothing about me, I am very personally aware of the anguish women and men go through agonising before and after an abortion, I dont have any children of my own first abortion when I was 18 and my girlfriend was 17, she decided to have it aborted and although I wanted the kid I supported her through the abortion and after. Second was 3 years ago again I really wanted a kid but my partner is 7 years older than me and already has 4 kids. We agonised over this and agreed that it was best to go ahead with an abortion, in this case nature stepped in and my partner miscarried. SO how dare you suggest that I am brainwashed. I believe in the right of women to choose to abort or have a pregnancy, the man involved has a duty of care to the woman whatever her choice

Last edited by DentArthurDent on 05 Sep 2008, 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Abortions for some, small American flags for others.

The only people I hear saying that 'abortion is easy' are pro-lifers claiming that women routinely use abortion 'as birth control.' So which is it? Abortion is traumatic, or abortion is too casual and easy?

Exactly.

More fodder for the war machine?

pro abortion.

- A seven months old can learn, I even posted links and all, obviously you are free to keep your mind closed to this so your rationalizations work, saying it is not a human being or that it is not alive is a double standard, abortion is murder.

- Now, you are free to discuss that this murder is necessary, or that the mother should be entitled to decide, etc. Perhaps that's all right, however, we are still talking about a living human being, should a mother be allowed to decide of this fate.

- I oppose the war on Iraq just about any other rational person would. Last time I checked war on Iraq had nothing to do with abortion and saying abortion is murder did not imply at all that I don't think Iraqis are non-humans, please don't just dismiss my opinions through generalizations.

- You just called me a hypocrite, however the double standard that you created by specifying an arbitrary barrier for humanity puts your statement closer to hypocrisy.

- So, there exist women that were forced to do this, and it was tragic and painful, the only choice, etc. However that isn't relevant in defining whether it is murder or not.

- I never said a bunch of brainless cells are a human being, I am talking about the presence of a brain that can learn. I agree with those pills and 'abortion' during this stage. In my opinion this is the optimal solution for unwanted pregnancies. The deal will be less traumatic for the mother, the pregnancy time will be reduced, and there would be no murder.

- If a kid is born too soon, he is not able to support himself, needs to live from a machine again, is the kid non-alive now? Is it Ok then to end his life?

- Should a mother be entitled to decide the death of her child, that's probably *fair* enough, I am just saying it is still murder.

- Is murder a bad thing, would you go to hell if you do it, does the context matter? I am not worrying about this, I don't think there exists such a thing as hell, I am also not sure if this case of murder is a bad thing. You do make great points saying that the baby would not be missed, that he will leave a misserable life, etc. Well, I do get bad vibes in my opinion from the statement that other people and not yourself are entitled to decide your fate like that, perhaps only letting the mother do it makes sense, but still...

- If someone killed you, you most likely won't be able to complain.

- We guys that think that abortion is murder are evil, we believe in religion, in that a cell is more important than Iraqi people. That all liberals are satanists, that a rape victim should marry the rapist, etc, etc, etc. Therefore our opinion is not valid, not at all, not by any chance, in fact you don't even need to read my posts.

Not the same, just disagreeing that the differences justify it calling non-human or non-living.


Just because you think it isn't...



Yep, a fetus shows brain activity.


Ok, I don't have the numbers but out of all pregancies in which no intentional abortion was involved, how many succeed?



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Link for a day: http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/hepper1/

I'm pretty sure most people would be opposed to late-term abortion (unless the mother was going to die or such like).

Goodness, I've had one myself, but I'd be more than happy if a law was brought in preventing them after, say, 14 or 16 weeks. I don't agree with them at all after that point when they could survive outside the womb.

A flatworm can learn. That doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. Repeating yourself does not make something true; it is obviously human, and obviously alive (as were the ovum and sperm that formed it). That is not the question. The question is whether or not it is a person.



That was based on the fact that many forced-preggers are conservative in other areas (ie hawkish) along with being anti-choice. Apologies for the misconception.



what gestational age would you set as a cutoff? zygote? blastocyst? embryo? fetus of varying ages?



The earliest viability even with dramatic intervention is, IIrc, 24 weeks (ie half of infants at 24 weeks will survive, with intervention). Even then, the kid is often damaged for life: mental retardation, blindness, etc. While no one advocates outright killing a premature infant at that stage, parents may opt out of 'above-and-beyond' care at many hospitals at 24 weeks or younger.



Saying it over and over does not make it so.



Sometimes the absence of that potential child that was aborted will hurt. Sometimes the child that might have been aborted, but wasn't, has a happy life. Regardless, it's the mother's choice whether or not to donate her body to another human being for 9 months.



I sure as hell hope that you have someone designated as your decision maker in the case of a debilitating accident or medical condition, preferably with written and witnessed documentation. Maybe you're ok with the idea, but I personally would hate to end up like Terri Schaivo, with religious relatives holding my body hostage long after I'm brain dead. I've made it clear to the people who would make decisions like that about my fate that they are to pull the plug.



This is true. In one sense, a murder (assuming a quick death) is more of a crime against a victim's loved ones than against the victim themself.



So does a shark. The question is whether or not it shows human brain activity.



Somewhere less than 40%, if you count those eggs that were fertilized but never implanted as 'pregnancies.' What does that have to do with viability (ie the stage at which a fetus is no longer dependent on human-donor life support)?

How would you know if you did?

The idea of being plastered all over cable news displays with my Goddamn mouth hanging open embarrasses me too, but no matter what happens after death, I probably wouldn't see it in any case.

I guess many people have a weird hangup about being disgraced in death, even though it technically doesn't matter.

In any case, I'm pretty sure my family knows that I want to be cremated and (unceremoniously) scattered should I die early; I don't want anyone looking at my corpse or saying things in front of it. That's just sick.

Oh yeah and I don't care about abortion.

I know that you are a nihilist but can you at least agree to have your organs donated before you are unceremoniously cremated

They can have whatever they want from me considering I won't need my body when I stop working.

Just my opinion on that anyhow.

Kids can be born after 7 months and be maintained without human support. Then a secen months fetus counts as a living being.

So, what's your definition of human EEG? EEG that comes from something that forcefully qualifies for your definition of human?

Which is what I am trying to say.


You used to say it is not living and that it is not a human, now you are saying it is not a person. Person is so fuzzy that under some definitions of "person" 1 year olds don't count as those... I think of killing as ending the life of a human being. You might invent the term person to make sure certain humans don't count as victims for this, it is very convenient.

I'd say it is about the stage in which it begins kicking.

Anyway, I am off, sure worms can learn, but can they learn number two? And differentiate music? Either way, I think that the learning ability from this worm proves it is alive, we humans are used to being ok with killing animals, so, no body would care that much to the fact that when you kill a worm, you are indeed killing it.

Everything would be easier if we sticked to eggs.

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I think, that if you don't want to be pregnant you should at least try doing the abortion as fast as possible? At least lower the probability of suffering for both the mother and the fetus, none of us is really entitled to decide whether it counts as a human being or not, but what if it did? If you don't want a child, end the problem before it gets messy, in my opinion that fetus can learn and have memory and you can remember your mother's voice, indicate it is at least something that deserves some respect. I guess in part this is fault with those pro-life guys and a society that won't allow you to make the decision quick. In my utopical world you would be forced to get rid of all pregnancy probabilities at the time you report a rape. Anyway, education should also go to make sure girls that got unprotected sex could react to the issue faster than waiting for the nausea...

If you already got to the point that the pregnancy lasted seven months, could you at least consider letting it be born? You have already gone through most of the hassle already, and there is adoption. Sure it might look like it would be like getting in a soul that will be doomed to suffer, but how do you know that? I am thinking abortion is more traumatic than letting a child go, I have no idea about that. Just consider that some of us wackos would think that fetus is already a human being, if after all of this you still want to have an abortion, go for it, I cannot really decide that, even though I still think it is not the best solution. I won't go there to stop you. Let me finish posting in this thread, it is tiresome.

So, all I wanted to say was that, if you intend not to be pregnant take the decision as soon as possible, it will do a lot of a difference.

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 08 Sep 2008, 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

then why read into this topic anyways?