Is Atheism a threat to Freedom

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psychohist
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14 Nov 2010, 2:52 am

91 wrote:

The problem I have with all of this argument about Hitler being this and that is that escapes the point. It all comes from a desire to paint the other side with the crimes of Hitler and the Nazi's. When the one thing we all share in common with him is that he was a man and he did evil things. What ever else he was, he was human first and we all have to take a piece of the blame.

Thinking that other humans "have to take a piece of the blame" for Hitler's actions just because they also happen to be human is completely bogus; how can someone who was born after Hitler died be responsible for any of his actions?

You are correct that the discussion of Hitler "comes from a desire to paint the other side with the crimes of Hitler", and that that argument is bogus, but it's bogus specifically because sharing some traits with Hitler doesn't make one responsible for any of his actions.

Hitler was Christian by any reasonable objective standard. That doesn't mean all Christians are responsible for what Hitler did.

Likewise, Stalin was atheist by any reasonable objective standard. That doesn't mean all atheists is responsible for what Stalin did.

psychohist
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14 Nov 2010, 3:07 am

ruveyn wrote:

Be more precise. It is a lack of belief in the existence of the current mainline god. Many atheists have beliefs pertaining to other issues than the existence or non-existence of god.

I think you were correct earlier, when you characterized atheism as lacking faith. However, I think this summary is mistaken in two respects.

First, atheism is not only lack of a belief in god - agnostics have that too - but a belief there are no gods. I believe that if I jump out the window, I will fall to the ground - that's physics. I believe there are no gods - that's atheism. Neither requires faith, since they can both be based on observation, experimentation, and logic, but they are still beliefs.

It's also a belief that there's no god at all, not just that the "current mainline god" doesn't exist. Wiccan's don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god, but that doesn't make them atheists.

Sand
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14 Nov 2010, 3:07 am

91 wrote:

Sand wrote:

91 wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

91 wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

Sand wrote:

It seems to me the question should be posed in the opposite direction, Not "Is atheism a threat to freedom?" But rather "Is religion a threat to freedom?" The notice in today's newspapers of the freedom of the internet leading to the prosecution of a Palestinian by Hamas for blasphemy (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Palest ... y-20101111) and the banning of Facebook in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5122083) is an open indication of religion restriction of freedom. History, of course, is replete with religious authority suppressing scientific discovery that conflicts with religious dogma.

very true, religion IS a threat to freedom

Yes and all those Christian soldiers who die for it are a threat to freedom too....

you're saying that the crusades, salem witch hunts, etc. were acts of religious tolerance and freedom?

Using your logic no one could. Name me one pure ideology?

They are existence proofs that Christians can stand against freedom; but not sufficient grounds to suppose that they will.

And by that an indication, at minimum, that Christianity itself can be assumed irrelevant in the defense of freedom. On the other side it seems evident that Christianity in these situations was the motivation to attack freedom.

Ha. There were plenty of free people chopping other free peoples heads off during the French Revolution. Using your logic I could dismiss Freedom as being irrelevant to the defense of Freedom.

We are not talking about free people,nor are we talking about cancer killing people or lions eating people, we are talking about how Christians are just as vicious as any other people both with and without motives out of Christianity.

ruveyn
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14 Nov 2010, 3:15 am

Sand wrote:

Christianity is NOT about being good. It is all about being saved. In fact Christianity is built on the premise of original sin which is without remedy or removal by any act or choice of a human purely in the human domain. It takes the Sacred Blood of Jesus Christ to do the trick. No work or act purely in the domain of human choice is sufficient. Mankind is utterly damned except by the redemption afforded by the sacrifice and death of Jesus Christ. The bad news is that getting the benefit of the sacrifice and death of Jesus Christ has strings attached. One string as that the beneficiary has to park his brains outside in the church parking lot.

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skafather84
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14 Nov 2010, 3:22 am

God is the superego; religion is the meeting of the ego and superego; fundamentalism is the rejection of the ID in a horrific misunderstanding of the superego. All the while, this is still just one person's brain.

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ruveyn
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14 Nov 2010, 3:27 am

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

skafather84
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14 Nov 2010, 5:48 am

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

That is exactly what I was trying to illustrate: it's unhealthy and a divorce between an important part of the psyche and the functioning day-to-day brain.

Vince
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14 Nov 2010, 7:36 am

psychohist wrote:

First, atheism is not only lack of a belief in god - agnostics have that too - but a belief there are no gods.

I'm going to object to that statement. What you're describing is ghostic atheism (not to be confused with "gnosticism", which is a completely different thing). See, theist/atheist asnwers the question of whether belief in gods is present. Gnostic/agnostic answers the question of knowledge.
If you're an agnostic theist, you believe that there's a god (or gods) but you're not convinced, just sort of "going with it".
If you're an agnostic atheist, you're unsure of whether there are gods, and therefore don't hold a belief.
If you're a gnostic theist, you are certain that there is such a thing as a god.
If you're a gnostic atheist, you are convinced that there are no gods.
Of course, there are enough disagreements on this subject for it to almost be a matter of personal linguistic preference.

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Sand
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14 Nov 2010, 7:47 am

Vince wrote:

psychohist wrote:

First, atheism is not only lack of a belief in god - agnostics have that too - but a belief there are no gods.

Then there are atheists who cannot take the whole business seriously and feel pity for those who do.

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14 Nov 2010, 9:07 am

skafather84 wrote:

I like the relation there might be between this structuring of our mind, the trends of our own egoistic (id) / altruistic (superego) nature and that of the very groups in which we evolved.

As most primates exist in social groups with a leader in it, it seems natural that our identity would evolve as a balance of our own wishes and that of the group as a whole, in the figure of our leader. I think our own psychological structure is a result of the social structure we were exposed to during evolution.

As such, we seem prone to accept and even to need a leader. In more complex civilizations, where we are so far from the leaders that actually affect or day-to-day, gods as conscious and personified manifestations should be just a substitution of what we might miss as monkeys.

Inuyasha
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14 Nov 2010, 2:59 pm

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

That is exactly what I was trying to illustrate: it's unhealthy and a divorce between an important part of the psyche and the functioning day-to-day brain.

So using that argument anyone whom does altruistic good deeds are deluded and/or insane, because it isn't in that individual's best interests...

The idea that people are nothing but users, that's a rather depressing view of life.

number5
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14 Nov 2010, 3:31 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

That is exactly what I was trying to illustrate: it's unhealthy and a divorce between an important part of the psyche and the functioning day-to-day brain.

You might say deluded and insane, I would say kind and selfless. I can see how your view is depressing.

Inuyasha
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14 Nov 2010, 3:38 pm

number5 wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

That is exactly what I was trying to illustrate: it's unhealthy and a divorce between an important part of the psyche and the functioning day-to-day brain.

You might say deluded and insane, I would say kind and selfless. I can see how your view is depressing.

No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

number5
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14 Nov 2010, 3:51 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

number5 wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

That is exactly what I was trying to illustrate: it's unhealthy and a divorce between an important part of the psyche and the functioning day-to-day brain.

You might say deluded and insane, I would say kind and selfless. I can see how your view is depressing.

No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

Since when can't humans act irrationally? And is it entirely irrational? It feels good to do good. Brain chemistry supports this idea.

Inuyasha
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14 Nov 2010, 3:54 pm

number5 wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

number5 wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Which is functionally decomposed by the contradictions you have enumerated. Religion is bad for ones mental health.

ruveyn

That is exactly what I was trying to illustrate: it's unhealthy and a divorce between an important part of the psyche and the functioning day-to-day brain.

You might say deluded and insane, I would say kind and selfless. I can see how your view is depressing.

No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

Since when can't humans act irrationally? And is it entirely irrational? It feels good to do good. Brain chemistry supports this idea.

You are contradicting yourself...

Vince
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14 Nov 2010, 3:58 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

Nope. We are genetically predisposed to care about eachother. We are a flock animal. We're more like lions than snakes in that respect. We are genetically predisposed to care about others in our flock. But as societies have developed, the flock concept has gotten a bit confusing. Some of us end up seeing all of humanity as the flock, while others might have narrower views. Then of course there are sociopaths, who have no concept of a flock.

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