The blame game gets even more crazy
Hm... a child whose life is quite literally on the line, who risks being sent to a concentration camp if he's discovered, is somehow morally equivalent to active and willing participants in the Nazi regime who later claimed to be "just following orders?"
I really doubt any of us have been in the same kind of situation as Soros experienced when he was young. Don't pretend to pass judgment on him.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Hm... a child whose life is quite literally on the line, who risks being sent to a concentration camp if he's discovered, is somehow morally equivalent to active and willing participants in the Nazi regime who later claimed to be "just following orders?"
I really doubt any of us have been in the same kind of situation as Soros experienced when he was young. Don't pretend to pass judgment on him.
Many of those folks were in the same situation if they refused orders tbf. I wonder how far Soros would of went for self preservation had he been a couple years older.
Has Loughner undergone any sort of psychiatric or neurological evaluation to determine his sanity (or lack thereof) yet? Or is he insane because people decided he is? Far as I recall he hasn't even spoken to the Police yet, so how Obama has determined he must be insane is beyond me. If he refuses to speak, any statements about his motivation are pure speculation.
Unless the US mental health system has now progressed to a level where "If the President says you're insane, that means you ARE insane." (With due apology to Nixon for the paraphrasing.) Loughner is as sane as the next person until diagnosed otherwise.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
Honestly, my first reflex upon hearing the news is that the shooter was a Tea Partier, putting "Second Amendment remedies" into action by trying to assassinate a Democrat, a "liberal-activist" federal judge, et al. I searched around and could find nothing conclusively linking him with the Tea Party or the mainstream Right, but he does seem to have taken on a few right-wing ideas. It seems he had some kind of psychosis. That I jumped to Tea Partier is an indication of just how extreme right-wing rhetoric got leading up to the 2010 midterms and even going back to the summer of 2010 when Tea Partiers brought firearms to townhall meetings.
Hm... a child whose life is quite literally on the line, who risks being sent to a concentration camp if he's discovered, is somehow morally equivalent to active and willing participants in the Nazi regime who later claimed to be "just following orders?"
I really doubt any of us have been in the same kind of situation as Soros experienced when he was young. Don't pretend to pass judgment on him.
Many of those folks were in the same situation if they refused orders tbf. I wonder how far Soros would of went for self preservation had he been a couple years older.
As a Jew, Soros was in much more immediate danger. Germans living under Nazi rule could more or less continue in their civilian lives and stay under the radar. For a Jew in occupied Hungary, the situation was much more dire.
And I will reiterate... do not presume to judge him. You have not experienced the same things as he did, and neither have I. It is easy to be brave when you're sitting safe at home. When your life is actually on the line it is a very different matter.
Unless the US mental health system has now progressed to a level where "If the President says you're insane, that means you ARE insane." (With due apology to Nixon for the paraphrasing.) Loughner is as sane as the next person until diagnosed otherwise.
His writings and Youtube videos do not indicate someone in complete command of their mental faculties. Granted, such observations are not a substitute for a proper medical diagnosis, but it seems pretty clear that Loughner is not right in the head.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Yeah I think it's unfair to judge him when there are tons of incidents where Aspies get bullied and don't even fight back. Never mind a school yard bully if you're dealing with Nazi's.
If it is true that he says those were the fondest times of his life, then that's f****d up. But I don't blame him for folding under pressure, especially at the age of 14...
EDIT: Corrected myself, I dunno why I put 18...
Last edited by AceOfSpades on 16 Jan 2011, 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But what of the people who were actually shot, but survived, or who were eyewitnesses to the tragedy? What do they think? Who do they blame for the sorry state of the toxic political climate that led a complete lunatic like Jared Loughner to seek to inflict his “Second Amendment remedies,” on them, as per the innocent, blameless Sharron Angle?
Well, can’t say it’s much of a shock to report that at least one of the shooting victims, Eric Fuller, a 63-year-old disabled veteran who had campaigned for Gabrielle Giffords in her reelection campaign last Fall, DOES blame Palin, Beck and Angle. Fuller, who was shot in the knee and wounded in the back, told Democracy Now that “It looks like Palin, Beck, Sharron Angle and the rest got their first target. Their wish for second amendment activism has been fulfilled.” In remarks Fuller prepared in advance for the interview, he added “Their wish for Second Amendment activism has been fulfilled—senseless hatred leading to murder, lunatic-fringe anarchism, subscribed to by John Boehner, mainstream rebels with vengeance for all, even nine-year-old girls.”
In my book, Mr. Fuller’s opinion holds more water than Palin’s, Beck’s, Angle’s, Limbaugh’s and the whole of the Fox News staff’s (especially Steeve Doocey, who is a blithering idiot) combined. He took a bullet, two, in fact, so he’s got a right to his opinion. He earned it with his own blood. Suck on that, Sarah Palin!
What’s pathetically ridiculous about the entire argument from the right that the specific words of these specific people had no effect on this matter because Loughner is so very obviously batshit crazy is that this ISN’T the first incident like this in recent memory. It’s (at least) the second (if not the third: the name Richard Poplawski ring a bell?).
Why are so few people in the media talking about what happened when Glenn Beck decided to make the tiny Tides Foundation into a fearsome component of his “the progressive movement wants to destroy America with their evil Socialism” conspiracy theories last year? It HAS happened already that a mentally unbalanced person has decided to fight the vast-leftwing conspiracy that Beck and others subscribe to and propagate, with violence. Just seven months ago, a bank-robber out on parole, Byron Williams, en route to murder the staff at the Tides Foundation, opened fire on Oakland police with a 9mm handgun, a shotgun and a .308-caliber rifle with armor-piercing bullets. Williams told told authorities that he wanted to foment a revolution by “killing people of importance at the Tides Foundation and the ACLU.” His mother told the San Francisco Chronicle that her son had been watching Fox News and was angered by “the way Congress was railroading through all these left-wing agenda items.” Williams thought that the Tides Foundation was part of a conspiracy in which the BP oil spill was a deliberate act of sabotage masterminded by George Soros and progressives.
Sound like a Glenn Beck fan to you?
(Self-described “progressive hunter,” Williams told a reporter that Beck “blew [his] mind.” Who I am to disagree?)
Where will all of this end? Who knows, but what happens when the people who make a living riling up dumb-ass, poorly-educated white people to hate and fear people who are different than they are or who think differently than they do, face a blowback themselves? Sooner or later, a left-wing crazy probably is gonna come after one of them. It wouldn’t stretch the imagination of anyone to figure that somewhere out there in this vast nation of 300 million people, there is a foaming at the mouth far-left nutcase (or a “radical centrist” for that matter) who feels that what’s really destroying America is a**holes like Beck, Palin and Sharron Angle and who thinks killing them is the answer to our nation’s problems.
I have a sickening, sinking feeling that this isn’t the end of this, for lack of a better term, “partisan violence,” but just the warm-up acts. There is something eerily Weimar Republic-esque about the sad state of present day America and it’s extremely disturbing to attempt to draw this type of behavior to its logical conclusions. Before anyone writes in to say that it’s only the right-wing who is using the violent talk, the “reload” nonsense and the brain-damaged conspiracy theories, I get that. I know that. What I’m trying to point out here is that I think the genie is all the way out of the bottle for this type of violence, for them, too.
Even if the right has always been the spiritual home to the racist and cryptofascist fringe, from the KKK to the John Birch Society to today’s Teabaggers, there are crazy people all across the political spectrum. The next time—and there is going to be a next time—it might be a former member of the American middle class who has lost his home or pension who comes gunning after a Republican. The next shooter might come from the ranks of the 99ers. The next cold blooded killer could be a radical environmentalist. The next political assassin might be someone whose child died because their insurance company didn’t pay for a new medical treatment or ...?
This toxic political climate in America today is a direct or indirect consequence of a small number of politicians and pundits on the far right calling those who they disagree with “evil.” Does anyone with half a brain, really dispute that? Then something awful happens, like what happened in Tucson. And then there is more blame. Then the momentum of the bad craziness builds in some lone-wolf lefty lunatic and this energy reemerges with someone on the right getting hurt. And then it will start again. Back and forth, back and forth.
When, not if, the next politician, government official or TV news pundit who is killed turns out to be someone on the conservative side, Palin, Beck, Angle, Limbaugh, Michael Savage and the idiots at Fox News will have no one to blame but themselves.
Op-Ed by Richard Metzger found on his Dangerous Minds website found at www.dangerousminds.net
Quoting since inuyasha ignored it and just posted his own Loughner-esque aside.
_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823
?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson
From the solidly rightwing National Post (commits quite a few false equivalencies against the left in the article):
Militant conservatives oppose the Hungarian-American financier because he is liberal, and because he is rich, and because he uses his money to finance left-wing causes. Yet many philanthropists match this description. For Beck and his imitators, Soros is special: They have made him the Emanuel Goldstein in their daily Two Minutes’ Hate.
On his FOX News show this week, Beck profiled Soros on a segment he called The Puppet Master, which FOX aired with creepy black-and-white newsreel-style graphics. Beck warned viewers of a shadowy “structure” being installed in America by saboteurs seeking to transform the country. “All the paths, time after time, really led to one man,” Beck declared, pointing to a flowchart. “George Soros, one guy.”
Soros’ fingerprints, Beck declared, were on the “crisis collapsing our economy,” as well as a plot to create a “One World Government.” The FOX News hosts also believes that “Not only does [Soros] want to bring America to her knees, financially, he wants to reap obscene profits off us as well.”
According to Beck’s conspiracist narrative, there seems to be no sin that cannot somehow be laid at Soros’ feet — even, the crimes of the Nazis.
Soros is Jewish. When the Nazis occupied his native Hungary, Soros, like some other Jewish children, was recruited to help deliver deportation notices to Jewish families. Out of this fact has grown a mythology that paints Soros (who was 14 when this happened) as a full-blown Nazi collaborator. Beck wallowed in this material during his FOX broadcast.
Of course, lots of people casually throw around Nazi references these days. The anti-war left likened Bush to Hitler during the Iraq War, and the Tea Party movement returned the favour with Obama.
Yet there is something especially unsettling about Beck’s smear on Soros. Despite Beck’s upbeat, high-energy, everyman schtick, his case against Soros unwittingly taps into some very dark ideological currents. The idea that a secret cabal of all-powerful financiers and “puppet masters” is deliberately seeking to crash the world’s economies and thereby create a “one-world government” has been kicking around right-wing conspiracist circles since the publication of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion — in which the fictional Jewish “Elders” are shown as plotting to render “all the goy States to bankruptcy,” and to create a “Super-Government Administration.” This similitude helps explains why the Anti-Defamation League described Beck’s rants against Soros as “offensive” and “horrific.”
Yet no one can say Beck is anti-Semitic (not even the ADL makes that claim). The man is too ignorant to understand the historical origins of his conspiracist mythology. And in any case, Beck’s claim against Soros isn’t that he’s Jewish — but, bizarrely, that he’s not Jewish enough.
At one point on his show this week, Beck declared that he is “probably more supportive of Israel and the Jews than George Soros is.” He also declared that Soros is “an atheist who doesn’t embrace his Jewish identity, and rarely supports Jewish causes.”
I guess Jews just can’t please some people, can they? For centuries, Jewish bankers and financiers have laboured under the conspiracist accusation that they were fifth columnists — agents of a foreign Hebrew power that sought to control and oppress the gentiles. Now, decades later, right-wing conspiracists like Beck come around and flip the old mythology on its head. Soros stands accused of destroying the world economy for his own purposes and seeking to create a New World Order — just like the Rothschilds; but this time, the Jewish card is played against him in reverse. His fealty to his Jewish kind, Beck intones, is suspect — so much so that the gentile Beck declares himself a superior Elder to an octogenarian Jew who endured Nazi occupation as a child.
I wonder whether George Soros has watched Glenn Beck’s shows this week; and if so, what he thinks of them. I imagine he must find the whole spectacle more bizarre than hurtful. Yet, like the rest of us, he must also worry about an American political culture that has turned cable news into a forum for such lurid conspiracy theories.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... rge-soros/
Hm... a child whose life is quite literally on the line, who risks being sent to a concentration camp if he's discovered, is somehow morally equivalent to active and willing participants in the Nazi regime who later claimed to be "just following orders?"
I really doubt any of us have been in the same kind of situation as Soros experienced when he was young. Don't pretend to pass judgment on him.
Many of those folks were in the same situation if they refused orders tbf. I wonder how far Soros would of went for self preservation had he been a couple years older.
As a Jew, Soros was in much more immediate danger. Germans living under Nazi rule could more or less continue in their civilian lives and stay under the radar. For a Jew in occupied Hungary, the situation was much more dire.
And I will reiterate... do not presume to judge him. You have not experienced the same things as he did, and neither have I. It is easy to be brave when you're sitting safe at home. When your life is actually on the line it is a very different matter.
Unless the US mental health system has now progressed to a level where "If the President says you're insane, that means you ARE insane." (With due apology to Nixon for the paraphrasing.) Loughner is as sane as the next person until diagnosed otherwise.
His writings and Youtube videos do not indicate someone in complete command of their mental faculties. Granted, such observations are not a substitute for a proper medical diagnosis, but it seems pretty clear that Loughner is not right in the head.
I'm tempted to cross-reference to the Conspiracy theory thread, but that would probably reinforce the fact that youtubers can be a funny lot.
Has he actually spoken to the police yet?
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
This is exactly how propaganda works. A lot paranoid right wingers are already suspicious of someone like George Soros for being rationally critical of Israel, for making his fortune on hedge funds and currency speculation (something most true libertarians would defend as non-harmful), for financing political organizations that Glenn Beck tells them are "commie fronts". So now that they are already suspicious, they conclude he must be a psychopath based on the self-preservatory actions he took as a 14 year old to prevent him and his family from being shipped to the death camps. I would bet a million dollars no right-winger would rush to the same judgement on those actions in those circumstances had George Soros become a conservative Jew toting the pro-Israeli line.
Last edited by marshall on 16 Jan 2011, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Last I heard from his own mouth based on interviews Soros has had, he has a God Complex and considers the time he collaborated with the Nazis as one of the happiest times of his life and he isn't even remotely ashamed about it. Sounds to me is left the Jewish Faith behind long ago and is an atheist.
Last I heard from his own mouth based on interviews Soros has had, he has a God Complex and considers the time he collaborated with the Nazis as one of the happiest times of his life and he isn't even remotely ashamed about it.
Immediately provide a source, because it sounds like despicable libel.
So? A pretty large subset of ethnic and even cultural Jews are atheists and, furthermore, under Torah Law he's still Jewish.
Let me just say that I know the despicable, shameless, and dishonest antics of Inuyasha enough to know the source will probably be World Net Daily, crybaby conspiracist Glenn Beck, or a random post on the Free Republic. Regardless, it looks like many Jewish leaders and scholars disagree with Glenn Beck's nonsense.
Jewish leaders expressed outrage at an attack by Glenn Beck on George Soros' World War II childhood.
Beck, the Fox News Channel provocateur, is running a series this week on his radio an TV shows, portraying Soros as attempting to control the U.S. economy.
In his radio show Wednesday, Beck revived an unfounded claim that Soros, as a child in Hungary, helped ship Jews to death camps.
"And George Soros used to go around with this anti-Semite and deliver papers to the Jews and confiscate their property and then ship them off," Beck said. "And George Soros was part of it. He would help confiscate the stuff. It was frightening. Here's a Jewish boy helping send the Jews to the death camps. And I am certainly not saying that George Soros enjoyed that, even had a choice. I mean, he's 14 years old. He was surviving. So I'm not making a judgment. That's between him and God. As a 14-year-old boy, I don't know what you would do."
In fact, Soros, then 13 and living under the protection of a non-Jewish Hungarian, on one occasion joined the older man when he was ordered by Nazis to inventory the estate of a Hungarian Jew who had fled. On another occasion, the local Jewish council had ordered Soros to deliver letters to local lawyers; Soros' father, Tivadar, realized the letters were to Jewish lawyers, and meant to expedite their deportation. He told George to warn the targets to flee, and ended George's work with the council.
Soros has been strongly criticized in some Jewish circles over his calls for increased U.S. engagement in the Middle East peace process and his strong criticism of Israeli policies. In recent months, some pro-Israel advocates and pundits have slammed J Street for accpeting his money and then lying about doing so. But, in this case, the loudest Jewish voices belong to those defending Soros from Beck's attacks.
"This is the height of ignorance or insensitivity, or both," said Abraham Foxman, the director of the Anti-Defamation League.
Foxman noted that, as a child, he was protected by non-Jews who had not revealed his background to him.
"As a kid, at six, I spit at Jews -- does that make me part of the Nazi machine?" Foxman said. "There's an arrogance here for Glenn Beck, a non-Jew, to set the standards of what makes a good Jew."
Elan Steinberg, the vice president of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants, called Beck's attack "improper."
"When you make a particularly monstrous accusation such as this, you have to have proof," he said. "I have seen no proof."
Simon Greer, the director of Jewish Funds for Justice, was one of several Jewish leaders who had confronted Beck after he had, during the recent election season, said terms like "social justice" lead to death camps.
Greer and other Jewish leaders met with senior FNC officials, and subsequently Beck sent Greer a note saying he understood "the sensitivity and sacred nature of this dark chapter in Human History."
Greer said Wednesday that Beck and Fox had made a "mockery of their professed understanding."
"No one who truly understands 'the sensitivity and sacred nature' of the Holocaust would deliberately and grotesquely mischaracterize the experience of a 13 year old Jew in Nazi-occupied Hungary whose father hid him with a non-Jewish family to keep him alive," Greer said. "Many other Jews survived the attempted extermination of the Jewish people by changing their identities and hiding with Righteous Gentiles. With today's falsehoods, Beck has engaged in a form of Holocaust revisionism."
A number of commentators have described Beck's overall series this week as employing anti-Semitic tropes.
"Beck went beyond demonizing him; he cast him as the protagonist in an updated Protocols of the Elders of Zion," Michelle Goldberg wrote on the Daily Beast. "He described Soros as the most powerful man on earth, the creator of a 'shadow government' that manipulates regimes and currencies for its own enrichment. Obama is his 'puppet,' Beck says. Soros has even 'infiltrated the churches.' He foments social unrest and economic distress so he can bring down governments, all for his own financial gain."
Media Matters, a liberal media watchdog, noted that in one instance, Beck extracted a quote about Soros' alleged abuses in Malaysia from a longer speech in which former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad makes an issue of Soros being a Jew.
http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=1504
Last I heard from his own mouth based on interviews Soros has had, he has a God Complex and considers the time he collaborated with the Nazis as one of the happiest times of his life and he isn't even remotely ashamed about it.
Immediately provide a source, because it sounds like despicable libel.
I did provide a source a while ago, you chose to ignore it. I'm not wasting my time finding it again for you to just ignore it all over again. Heck, Dox47 has also acknowledged that what I said about Soros is legit.
So? A pretty large subset of ethnic and even cultural Jews are atheists and, furthermore, under Torah Law he's still Jewish.
I don't really care what Torah Law says in this case, I care what is going on in his head.
Okay, so I'm supposed to trust some intangible, unidentifiable source as being the absolute truth on the Soros matter just because you, a man with a pathological confirmation bias and tendency to outright flip statements into their opposites so as to support your point of view, say so? The only thing Dox47 agreed to was that Soros had vague "interactions" with the Nazis and I wouldn't use someone who admittedly targets liberals more often for criticisms to "balance the forum" as an index of objective support.
Okay, so I'm supposed to trust some intangible, unidentifiable source as being the absolute truth on the Soros matter just because you, a man with a pathological confirmation bias and tendency to outright flip statements into their opposites so as to support your point of view, say so? The only thing Dox47 agreed to was that Soros had vague "interactions" with the Nazis and I wouldn't use someone who admittedly targets liberals more often for criticisms to "balance the forum" as an index of objective support.
He is technically correct on the basic facts (Soros did assist the Nazis in confiscating Jewish property, he has stated that he feels no guilt about it, etc) but, as can only be expected from someone who actually takes Beck seriously, the conclusions he draws from those facts are utterly ridiculous.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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