I am officially distubed by the truth of U.S healthcare.

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To which state in the US are we comparing Canada to?

For those interested, I've found a list of some of the best contributions Canadians have made to the medical field:
http://www.canadianmedicinenews.com/200 ... earch.html

Here are some highlights (to be fair to those arguing against universal health care, these come either from universities or after Canada's universal health care was instituted in 1966). Note also that the list stops at 2006 because the article is from 2007 - NOT because Canada hasn't made any advances since then.

• 1912 First surgical treatment of tuberculosis. (McGill University Health Centre Research Institute — Montreal, Quebec)
  
• 1933 First excision of the entire lung performed (pneumonectomy). (McGill University Health Centre Research Institute — Montreal, Quebec)
  
• 1939 Invention of the corneal splitting knife (still standard in surgery to reduce pressure in glaucoma). (McGill University Health Centre Research Institute — Montreal, Quebec)
  
• 1950 First neuro-surgical treatment of epilepsy performed. (McGill University Health Centre Research Institute — Montreal, Quebec)
  
• 1960 Implementation of genetic screening programs for hereditary metabolic diseases in newborns. (McGill University Health Centre Research Institute — Montreal, Quebec)
  
• 1971 Developed the world’s first paediatric electric prosthetic arm. (Bloorview Kids Rehab – Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1978 Developed the internationally-recognized AeroChamber, a medical device used to administer aerosolized medication for patients with asthma. This device continues to be used in practice around the world. (St. Joseph’s Healthcare – Hamilton, Ontario)
  
• 1979 Invention of a radically different ventilator (now used worldwide) that gently “shakes” oxygen into the lungs of children with severe lung disease, sparing many of them painful lung bypass procedures. (The Hospital for Sick Children — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1979 Development of “Continuous Passive Motion” (CPM), a revolutionary treatment for injured or diseased joints. Before this treatment, patients with damaged cartilage had to be totally immobilized. CPM is such an improvement that it is now being used in 17,500 hospitals in more than 77 countries worldwide. (The Hospital for Sick Children — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1981 World-first heart operation to correct a life-threatening heart condition known as right ventricular dysphasia. (Lawson Health Research Institute — London, Ontario)
  
• 1983 Successful single lung transplant. Lung transplants extend life expectancy and enhance the quality of life for end-stage pulmonary patients. (University Health Network — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1983 The Department of Nuclear Medicine becomes first to use a special imaging agent to diagnose Parkinson’s disease. Called [18] F6-fluorodopa PET, the chemical was produced by Hamilton Health Sciences and is now used worldwide. (Hamilton Health Sciences/McMaster University – Hamilton, Ontario)
  
• 1986 Developed first predictive testing for late onset genetic diseases (Huntington Disease). (Provincial Health Services Authority – Vancouver, British Columbia)
  
• 1987 First aortic valve replacement in the world using the Toronto Heart Valve, which is now used worldwide. (University Health Network — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1987 World’s first pacemaker cardioverter defibrillator is implanted. (Lawson Health Research Institute — London, Ontario)
  
• 1988 World’s first successful liver/small bowel transplant is performed. (Lawson Health Research Institute — London, Ontario)
  
• 1989 Development of the first oral treatment for hepatitis B, resulting in the drug Lamivudine. (Capital Health/University of Alberta — Edmonton, Alberta)
  
• 1989 Discovery of the gene which, when defective, causes cystic fibrosis, the most fatal genetic disease of Canadian children today. (The Hospital for Sick Children — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1993 Researchers demonstrate that mouse embryonic stem cells are capable of supporting the entire embryonic development and in fact creating completely cell cultured derived mice. (Mount Sinai Hospital — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1994 World’s first three-dimensional (3-D) ultrasound-guided cryosurgery. (Lawson Health Research Institute – London, Ontario)
  
• 1994 Solved the 30-year old puzzle of why so many people suffer an allergic reaction when they receive a blood transfusion. (Hamilton Health Sciences/McMaster University – Hamilton, Ontario)
  
• 1995 First physical map of the human genome created. (McGill University Health Centre Research Institute — Montreal, Quebec)
  
• 1996 Identification of a human blood cell that regenerates the entire blood system. This discovery enabled the development of new treatments for blood diseases such as leukemia, thalassemia and sickle cell anemia. (Hospital for Sick Children — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1996 Identification of a gene that causes colon cancer. Colorectal cancer is the second leading cause of cancer-related deaths among Canadians. (Hospital for Sick Children — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 1999 First islet transplant under the Edmonton protocol for Type I diabetes. Islet transplantation had been performed under other protocols; however, the Edmonton protocol produced unprecedented levels of success in the field of islet transplantation. (Capital Health/University of Alberta — Edmonton, Alberta)
  
• 2000 Discovery of the mechanism of formation of amyloid, the basis of Alzheimer’s and other diseases, and the subsequent development of drugs to treat this. (Kingston General Hospital — Kingston, Ontario)
  
• 2002 Introduction of revolutionary medication doses for depression and schizophrenia through positron emission tomography (PET) technology. (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 2002 Creation of a simple system to generate T-cells in a Petri dish. T-cells are a vital component of the immune system that orchestrate, regulate and coordinate the overall immune response. This discovery provided a method to create model systems to study the genetics and molecular biology of T-cell development and points to future clinical therapies for people whose immune systems have been destroyed, for example, by HIV or toxic cancer therapies. (Sunnybrook & Women’s Research Institute — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 2003 Researchers discover a way to make the immune system specifically recognize infectious prions, proteins that cause brain-wasting diseases like mad cow disease and Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease, its human equivalent. This discovery paves the way for the development of diagnostic tools, immunotherapy and a vaccine. (Sunnybrook & Women’s Research Institute — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 2003 Major international clinical trial provides first alternative treatment to taxol for preventing breast cancer recurrence in survivors five years post diagnosis. (University Health Network — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 2003 Performed the world’s first hospital-to-hospital telerobotic assisted surgery on a patient more than 400 kilometres away. During the procedure, they completed a Nissen Fundoplication on a 66-year old patient located at North Bay General Hospital from St. Joseph’s telerobotics suite in Hamilton, Ontario. (St. Joseph’s Healthcare – Hamilton, Ontario).
  
• 2003 Developed a genetically modified vaccine that can completely prevent the recurrence of metastatic breast cancer through genetically altered cells that only destroy cancer cells. (Hamilton Health Sciences/McMaster University – Hamilton, Ontario)
  
• 2003 Found that the vast majority of heart attacks can be predicted by nine easily measurable factors that are the same in virtually every region and ethnic group worldwide. (Hamilton Health Sciences/McMaster University – Hamilton, Ontario)
  
• 2004 World’s first use of beads of palladium, a low-dose radioactive material, to treat women with breast cancer on an outpatient basis. This therapy holds the promise of eliminating anguishing side effects and considerably enhancing the women’s quality of life. (Sunnybrook & Women’s Research Institute — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 2005 Developed the world’s first upper respiratory viral panel test that can accurately identify all respiratory viruses including various flu strains including H5N1 and the SARS Coronavirus. (St. Joseph’s Healthcare – Hamilton, Ontario)
  
• 2005 Identified novel mutations in the gene that causes Rett Syndrome. The discovery is now licenced as a test for the disorder and is available to the public. (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health — Toronto, Ontario)
  
• 2005 Initiation of first human clinical gene therapy trials for lipoprotein lipase deficiency. (Provincial Health Services Authority/BC Children’s Hospital – Vancouver, British Columbia)
  
• 2006 First curative therapy for Huntington Disease in a mouse model (Provincial Health Services Authority/BC Children’s Hospital, Vancouver, British Columbia)
  

McGill University is a center that recieves private funds. They have incentive to encourage people to produce research in the field of medicine. This improves their reputation, which improves the demand for their education, which in turn allows them to charge more to their students.

As to other areas, I am not sure as to whether they fully state owned and operated. Even government officials do have some incentive to produce research in the field of medicine, but it's my belief that the free market creates the conditions most suitable to progress in any field.

Tuition in Quebec is regulated by the provincial government. They can't charge more to their students just because they feel like it.

As for the other locations - WHO CARES whether they are fully state owned and operated?? Everyone's argument is that universal healthcare would virtually eliminate innovation. The list provided has shown this is not the case - if it were true, then Canada's innovation would have stagnated in the 60's. But it didn't. But that's not good enough, huh?

it's not that it would eliminate all innovation. The fundamental basis of the argument is that people operate on their own self interest.

Can you think of a case where some development, some discovery cannot ultimately be attributed to the person's self interest?

I suppose you could come up with an example where a scientist develops a vaccine or something, and gives his intellectual property away for free. That is not a case where you cannot ultimately attribute it to his self interest. Because you may suppose that what the person was interested in was not money, but the feeling he got out of the good he had done, or perhaps maybe a self interest in the way he wanted to be remembered.

The premise is that the free market is more favorable towards innovation, because regardless of a persons self interest - whatever it may be - he may produce this research or develop something without hinderance.

The videos were completely irrelevent. Health insurance and health care is not a f*****g pencil. Thanks for wasting my time.

Like I didn't see that coming. You know you don't have a real answer so you don't even try to address anything.

It wasn't my intention to waste your time or frustrate you. I was addressing the quote; "how so many people are so irrational as to actually believe against evidence that free-markets always tend towards an optimal benefit to cost ratio for the consumer"

That was what I was trying to address.

All of them
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011 ... lth_ca.php

Well my frustration is the videos you posted defend capitalism, yet I never attacked capitalism as a whole. Capitalism works great for efficiently producing things like cars, television sets, stereos, computers, etc... at the lowest possible cost to the consumer. My contention is that things like health insurance and prescription drugs are not operating on the same assumptions because the consumer is neither as informed nor does he/she have the same level of choice.

Why isn't the consumer as informed or have the same level of choice?

Dude, have you ever paid for a medical procedure in your life?

I'll give you the major points:

1: For most minor procedures, the practitioner usually Does Not Know how much his hospital will charge you. Sometimes they know only a ballpark. Sometimes they have no clue at all. Nobody informs them, and they don't trouble themselves with it.

2: More people than just your practitioner will bill you. So even if your practitioner knows, he doesn't know.

3: Your insurance carrier may only allow you to have that procedure at one hospital in your area

4: Even if your insurance lets you "shop around", the practitioner at another hospital is no more likely to know, and will bill you just for asking the question.

Short of going to india or mexico to have your procedure done, comparison shopping for health care is not really anywhere near the same level as comparison shopping for a roll of paper towels.

I do know a guy who went to mexico for gastric bypass surgery. When i asked him if he was getting a band or just a staple job, he told me that the gastric bypass clinic in mexico stressed that they do "six row staples".

I told him that they should give him a free shirt that says "I went all the way to mexico and all i got was six row staples"

The free market hasn't been at work in our healthcare system for decades, what we currently have is crony capitalism where Government is picking winners and losers. Fact of the matter is Government run healthcare has no motive for innovation, no incentive of efficiency, etc.

If the free market was allowed to operate and insurance could be purchased across state lines, you would find that many of the shannigans that some insurance companies pull would cease, out of fear their competitors would have a field day bashing them in advertisements.

I think he means to question the underlying cause of the lack of choice.

The problems you mention all stem from the broken insurance model for healthcare, which the state encourages through the tax exemption of employer-provided healthcare. Third-party payment, for a significant part of the medical care that we consume, is stupid. It reduces consumer incentive to ration and look for a good price because they are mostly spending someone else's money. Of course we all end up paying for this through increased premiums, but still, an individual consumer of health care has a diminished incentive to save as he will be paying high premiums regardless. We shouldn't be paying people to insure against routine occurrences. That is financial insanity. Insurance should be for catastrophes.

First the insurance companies would have to lower their prices so much that most individuals could afford to buy it. As it is now, health insurance is so expensive that the people who actually have it are the ones who get it subsidized by their employers. Some employers give a choice amongst health plans. But even there, the comparative costs between the plans are weighted by what deal the insurance company made with the employer.

The problem with insurance companies no longer paying for any preventive healthcare or minor procedures and having it all be out of pocket is that then people put off (or don't do at all) the preventative/minor things that prevent or lessen catastrophes. The catastrophe count goes up.

Also, what's routine for a healthy person is vastly different from what's routine for for someone with an underlying condition. An annual check-up for a healthy adult may be an absorbable cost, but routine care for a diabetic probably is not. What about someone who needs dialysis, or someone with a blood disorder? High blood pressure, arthritis, asthma, heart conditions, MS, MD, pregnancy, mental illness, and the list goes on.

Hundreds of conditions (possibly more) do not fall under the catastrophic category, but do require expensive, ongoing care.