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androbot2084
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18 Apr 2012, 2:43 pm

If we stick with the 2 party system we will be in hell forever.



ruveyn
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18 Apr 2012, 3:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Why is there such an urge to hate the Better People in our society?

Most of the Proles are dull and stupid.

ruveyn


wealthy does not = better person, I think it's that mentality that pisses people off...thinking ones economic status determines if they are a better or worse person and all just seems pretty stupid if you ask me.


It is true that wealthy does not equal better. But many of the better people (people who are smart and energetic) manage to either get rich or make a good living. The Proles of the industrial unions and the unskilled labor pool tend to drag their knuckles when they way.

Give them beer and t.v. an d they are happy.

ruyven



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18 Apr 2012, 4:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Why is there such an urge to hate the Better People in our society?

Most of the Proles are dull and stupid.

ruveyn


wealthy does not = better person, I think it's that mentality that pisses people off...thinking ones economic status determines if they are a better or worse person and all just seems pretty stupid if you ask me.


It is true that wealthy does not equal better. But many of the better people (people who are smart and energetic) manage to either get rich or make a good living. The Proles of the industrial unions and the unskilled labor pool tend to drag their knuckles when they way.

Give them beer and t.v. an d they are happy.

ruyven


give capitalists money and they are happy.......regardless of anything else going on.


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androbot2084
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18 Apr 2012, 4:05 pm

Let's give Bill Gates a tax break so the economy can be stimulated.



ruveyn
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18 Apr 2012, 4:08 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

give capitalists money and they are happy.......regardless of anything else going on.


Entrepreneurs tend to be pro-active and busy types. They just like doing stuff and getting stuff done. You typical industrial Prole is a knuckle dragger and a couch potato.

ruveyn



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18 Apr 2012, 4:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

give capitalists money and they are happy.......regardless of anything else going on.


Entrepreneurs tend to be pro-active and busy types. They just like doing stuff and getting stuff done. You typical industrial Prole is a knuckle dragger and a couch potato.

ruveyn


Not all entrepreneurs succeed, even if they do have all the traits specifically associated with entrepreneurship....there are all kinds of various reasons why they might not succeed. Hell I even know someone who has their own business and she still struggles. So having an entreprenuer type personality does not always ensure wealth or even decent pay really.

But then there are many people who aren't entrepreneurs so they don't even have that advantage going for them to make up for some of the other factors that might interfere with their success. I do not think entrepreneurs are 'better' than non-entrepreneurs they just have different skills and talents and weaknesses. Also there are all kinds of various reasons someone might not be as pro-active and busy as someone else.


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ruveyn
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18 Apr 2012, 4:15 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Not all entrepreneurs succeed, even if they do have all the traits .


That is true. But they go down trying. Unlike the typical knuckle dragging Prole who relies on his labor union.

ruveyn



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18 Apr 2012, 4:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Not all entrepreneurs succeed, even if they do have all the traits .


That is true. But they go down trying. Unlike the typical knuckle dragging Prole who relies on his labor union.

ruveyn


well I guess those are the only two kinds of people in existence than lazy and not lazy, and if you're wealthy it's assumed your not..if you're not wealthy it's assumed you are. :roll:


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Terlingua
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18 Apr 2012, 4:21 pm

I really don't understand the concept of wealth distribution. It seems like a way of punishing people for being successful while rewarding incompetency. Seems as though it would encourage the productive to become lazy and the lazy to become lazier still.



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18 Apr 2012, 4:26 pm

Terlingua wrote:
I really don't understand the concept of wealth distribution. It seems like a way of punishing people for being successful while rewarding incompetency. Seems as though it would encourage the productive to become lazy and the lazy to become lazier still.


Ok so what's your solution...and keep in mind not everyone who's not 'successfull' is that way do to incompetency or laziness, but that is a nice assumption that certainly helps with the argument wealth distribution is 'evil' and 'bad.' but does not paint a very accurate picture...it paints an emotionally charged picture that only adds to the stigma already attached to being anywhere below middle class.


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18 Apr 2012, 4:49 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Terlingua wrote:
I really don't understand the concept of wealth distribution. It seems like a way of punishing people for being successful while rewarding incompetency. Seems as though it would encourage the productive to become lazy and the lazy to become lazier still.


Ok so what's your solution...and keep in mind not everyone who's not 'successfull' is that way do to incompetency or laziness, but that is a nice assumption that certainly helps with the argument wealth distribution is 'evil' and 'bad.' but does not paint a very accurate picture...it paints an emotionally charged picture that only adds to the stigma already attached to being anywhere below middle class.


I never claimed to have a solution, though I can see fault in the solution presented by wealth distribution. Nor did I state that everyone who was unsuccessful was lazy. Productive does not mean successful, nor does lazy mean unproductive, though the latter are often linked.

Do you not think that the concept of "Steal from the rich, give to the poor" is not also emotionally charged? Place things in perspective if you will. You obviously have access to a computer, and equally obvious is that you possess the leisure time to post in a place like this. That places you in a wealth bracked several orders af magnitude higher than someone from say West Africa. To them, you are the 1%. You are the filthy capitalist that is wallowing in wealth with your 3 meals a day and running water while they starve. So in order to redistribute the wealth, shouldn't you be inviting about 100 of them into your home? I'm sure that their resource management is on par with your own, and so things should work out perfectly and fairly. Please get back to me with your success in this experimental endeavor so that I and others can begin to emulate the process. :D

Personally, I am not responsible for the world. I am responsible for myself and those very few individuals which I have strong emotional ties to. I had rather burn all of my wealth and do without than hand any portion of it over to someone who may or may not make financial decisions as well as I do. Ask me to help and I probably will(Because I am an absolute sucker for sob stories). Insist that I help because someone has less than I and I will tell you to get bent.



TM
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18 Apr 2012, 4:52 pm

You rarely get wealthy working for someone else unless you have a job in which your performance can be directly measured and you can be held accountable for it. A CEO tends to be well paid because his or her performance can be measured by company performance and he or she is held accountable for everything that takes place within the company. The person hires the executive staff, which is instrumental in setting up each area of the company and shape company police and are held directly accountable for it.

The main chunk of such salaries are similar to the incentive given to an entrepreneur though since it tends to directly relate to company performance in the form of stock options. This is an incentive for a person to increase the per share value of the company and thus shareholder value, and when this is done well over a period of time the person gets a further reward. With stock options, the CEO goes from being a pure employee to an employee/owner of the business, so in a sense he/she is both working for somebody else and him/herself.

Wealth in the form of land or capital, is the result of someone postponing gratification (saving capital) and investing it in land. The fact that it can be passed on is what opens the door for multi-generation wealth generation. Think about it like if your grandfather had invested $40 in Coca Cola for 1 piece of stock when it was made public in 1919, and that the 5 million that was worth in roughly 2006 had been sold by you and then reinvested in Apple during the financial crisis, which would have yielded 100% return by now making your 5 million, 10 million for your to pass on at some time in the future.

The reason owners are the ones who earn the most, is that owners are taking a risk. In the case of an entrepreneur they may think as follows "I'm currently being paid $X in hour for writing software code, the company can therefore charge X + Other overheads + Profit, for my time. Therefore, I could charge $Y per hour if I worked for myself". They are giving up a safe salary, for a chance at a bigger salary.

An entrepreneur decides that they have a skill they can sell. A skill is a function of talent + time + effort. Everyone has the same 24 hours in a day, there are limits to what skills one may focus on, as Warren Buffett put it "I'm lucky to have been born in the United States of America, where allocating capital is a highly valued skill".

Mark Cuban when speaking of his pre-rich days mentions that when he came home, regardless of how tired or drunk he was, he'd read a little bit before going to bed every night about things that were relevant to his business.

There is a reason why there are quite a few highly paid aspies out there, because their special interest happened to be one that is highly valued. Michael Burry for instance made his money because of an obsession with the stock market, which he studied and blogged about while in med school.

People elect to spend their time differently and unfortunately for some all time-expenditures aren't valued equally. Getting a law degree part time and watching law and order are valued differently.



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18 Apr 2012, 5:01 pm

Terlingua wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Terlingua wrote:
I really don't understand the concept of wealth distribution. It seems like a way of punishing people for being successful while rewarding incompetency. Seems as though it would encourage the productive to become lazy and the lazy to become lazier still.


Ok so what's your solution...and keep in mind not everyone who's not 'successfull' is that way do to incompetency or laziness, but that is a nice assumption that certainly helps with the argument wealth distribution is 'evil' and 'bad.' but does not paint a very accurate picture...it paints an emotionally charged picture that only adds to the stigma already attached to being anywhere below middle class.


I never claimed to have a solution, though I can see fault in the solution presented by wealth distribution. Nor did I state that everyone who was unsuccessful was lazy. Productive does not mean successful, nor does lazy mean unproductive, though the latter are often linked.

Do you not think that the concept of "Steal from the rich, give to the poor" is not also emotionally charged? Place things in perspective if you will. You obviously have access to a computer, and equally obvious is that you possess the leisure time to post in a place like this. That places you in a wealth bracked several orders af magnitude higher than someone from say West Africa. To them, you are the 1%. You are the filthy capitalist that is wallowing in wealth with your 3 meals a day and running water while they starve. So in order to redistribute the wealth, shouldn't you be inviting about 100 of them into your home? I'm sure that their resource management is on par with your own, and so things should work out perfectly and fairly. Please get back to me with your success in this experimental endeavor so that I and others can begin to emulate the process. :D

Yes that is emotionally charged, but I don't typically throw that term around.....I mean I agree with having a safety net to help the people who are struggling to make ends meet and all that. But I don't see that as 'steal from the rich and give to the poor.'

Also yes I have a lap-top and some time to post.......that does not mean my life is great, or that I should act like everything in society and the world is fine when it's not. And how is comparing that people in third world countries might be worse off supposed to change any of the financial issues I have? I am aware there are people worse off, in other countries but that does not mean everything is rainbows and cup-cakes for citizens of the U.S either.....and well there is the whole issue of corporate america contributing to problems in these third world countries but lets ignore that and keep supporting the same BS.

Also I am not a 'capitalist' .........I am not 'wallowing' in wealth I don't have 3 meals a day and the only way I have running water is people let me live at their house, I can't afford any of that though. Also where in the hell do you think I am going to get money to afford to go get 100 people from Africa? and I don't have a house like I said. What success are you expecting me to have when I cant even keep a job for longer then a couple months.


Personally, I am not responsible for the world. I am responsible for myself and those very few individuals which I have strong emotional ties to. I had rather burn all of my wealth and do without than hand any portion of it over to someone who may or may not make financial decisions as well as I do. Ask me to help and I probably will(Because I am an absolute sucker for sob stories). Insist that I help because someone has less than I and I will tell you to get bent.


But I should be responsible for the whole world.....if I disagree with the way the systems set up?


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18 Apr 2012, 5:57 pm

TM wrote:
You rarely get wealthy working for someone else unless you have a job in which your performance can be directly measured and you can be held accountable for it. A CEO tends to be well paid because his or her performance can be measured by company performance and he or she is held accountable for everything that takes place within the company. The person hires the executive staff, which is instrumental in setting up each area of the company and shape company police and are held directly accountable for it.

The main chunk of such salaries are similar to the incentive given to an entrepreneur though since it tends to directly relate to company performance in the form of stock options. This is an incentive for a person to increase the per share value of the company and thus shareholder value, and when this is done well over a period of time the person gets a further reward. With stock options, the CEO goes from being a pure employee to an employee/owner of the business, so in a sense he/she is both working for somebody else and him/herself.

Wealth in the form of land or capital, is the result of someone postponing gratification (saving capital) and investing it in land. The fact that it can be passed on is what opens the door for multi-generation wealth generation. Think about it like if your grandfather had invested $40 in Coca Cola for 1 piece of stock when it was made public in 1919, and that the 5 million that was worth in roughly 2006 had been sold by you and then reinvested in Apple during the financial crisis, which would have yielded 100% return by now making your 5 million, 10 million for your to pass on at some time in the future.

The reason owners are the ones who earn the most, is that owners are taking a risk. In the case of an entrepreneur they may think as follows "I'm currently being paid $X in hour for writing software code, the company can therefore charge X + Other overheads + Profit, for my time. Therefore, I could charge $Y per hour if I worked for myself". They are giving up a safe salary, for a chance at a bigger salary.

Mark Cuban when speaking of his pre-rich days mentions that when he came home, regardless of how tired or drunk he was, he'd read a little bit before going to bed every night about things that were relevant to his business.

There is a reason why there are quite a few highly paid aspies out there, because their special interest happened to be one that is highly valued. Michael Burry for instance made his money because of an obsession with the stock market, which he studied and blogged about while in med school.

People elect to spend their time differently and unfortunately for some all time-expenditures aren't valued equally. Getting a law degree part time and watching law and order are valued differently.




Do you not realize that there are millions of people who work paycheck to paycheck and simply cannot afford to be entrepreneurs because they don't have the money or the time? Let alone any property that could be used to generate wealth since they are still have to pay their rent/mortgage and their auto loans as well as the rest of their bills(and don't forget taxes!). Employers earn more than employees because the former have considerably more power and use it to enrich themselves more so than those whom they have power over. Do you think that someone making minimum wage has the money to buy stock? People who do go from rags to riches are much rare than guys like you would like us to believe. Usually it's because they were lucky enough to be born with extraordinary talent(this is again something they did not earn)that is valued enough by society that they can sell it, or they were in the right place at the right time and had access to the tools needed.

Most people are at the mercy of market forces. If they live paycheck to paycheck and lose their job for long enough they lose everything. For every success story there are a dozen stories of failure, and thousands of stories of people who simply will never have the opportunity to get rich and will die with very little more than the started with(if not less). Life isn't fair and it NEVER WILL BE. You can lie to yourself and lie to this forum, but that really won't change jack.


Quote:
An entrepreneur decides that they have a skill they can sell. A skill is a function of talent + time + effort. Everyone has the same 24 hours in a day, there are limits to what skills one may focus on, as Warren Buffett put it "I'm lucky to have been born in the United States of America, where allocating capital is a highly valued skill".




Now that is a really stupid thing to say. Different people have different work schedules and my sister who works as an attorney for a law firm is required to work nights and weekends for example. But even she has modest workload compared with people who work 12 hour shifts, 6 days a week at low paying jobs because they HAVE to do so in order to pay their expenses.



Last edited by AspieRogue on 18 Apr 2012, 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Terlingua
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18 Apr 2012, 6:00 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Terlingua wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Terlingua wrote:
I really don't understand the concept of wealth distribution. It seems like a way of punishing people for being successful while rewarding incompetency. Seems as though it would encourage the productive to become lazy and the lazy to become lazier still.


Ok so what's your solution...and keep in mind not everyone who's not 'successfull' is that way do to incompetency or laziness, but that is a nice assumption that certainly helps with the argument wealth distribution is 'evil' and 'bad.' but does not paint a very accurate picture...it paints an emotionally charged picture that only adds to the stigma already attached to being anywhere below middle class.


I never claimed to have a solution, though I can see fault in the solution presented by wealth distribution. Nor did I state that everyone who was unsuccessful was lazy. Productive does not mean successful, nor does lazy mean unproductive, though the latter are often linked.

Do you not think that the concept of "Steal from the rich, give to the poor" is not also emotionally charged? Place things in perspective if you will. You obviously have access to a computer, and equally obvious is that you possess the leisure time to post in a place like this. That places you in a wealth bracked several orders af magnitude higher than someone from say West Africa. To them, you are the 1%. You are the filthy capitalist that is wallowing in wealth with your 3 meals a day and running water while they starve. So in order to redistribute the wealth, shouldn't you be inviting about 100 of them into your home? I'm sure that their resource management is on par with your own, and so things should work out perfectly and fairly. Please get back to me with your success in this experimental endeavor so that I and others can begin to emulate the process. :D

Yes that is emotionally charged, but I don't typically throw that term around.....I mean I agree with having a safety net to help the people who are struggling to make ends meet and all that. But I don't see that as 'steal from the rich and give to the poor.'

Also yes I have a lap-top and some time to post.......that does not mean my life is great, or that I should act like everything in society and the world is fine when it's not. And how is comparing that people in third world countries might be worse off supposed to change any of the financial issues I have? I am aware there are people worse off, in other countries but that does not mean everything is rainbows and cup-cakes for citizens of the U.S either.....and well there is the whole issue of corporate america contributing to problems in these third world countries but lets ignore that and keep supporting the same BS.

Also I am not a 'capitalist' .........I am not 'wallowing' in wealth I don't have 3 meals a day and the only way I have running water is people let me live at their house, I can't afford any of that though. Also where in the hell do you think I am going to get money to afford to go get 100 people from Africa? and I don't have a house like I said. What success are you expecting me to have when I cant even keep a job for longer then a couple months.


Personally, I am not responsible for the world. I am responsible for myself and those very few individuals which I have strong emotional ties to. I had rather burn all of my wealth and do without than hand any portion of it over to someone who may or may not make financial decisions as well as I do. Ask me to help and I probably will(Because I am an absolute sucker for sob stories). Insist that I help because someone has less than I and I will tell you to get bent.


But I should be responsible for the whole world.....if I disagree with the way the systems set up?


I honestly don't expect everyone, or even mostly everyone, to be successful. There is a reason that 99% of all species that have inhabited the world are extinct. I am as successful as I am due partly to chance and partly through drive.

My problem is that wealth distribution really won't solve anything, and that the effort might even be detrimental to humanity overall. Some people have genetic makeup that is superior to others. Would it make sense to demand that those people mate with everyone that has inferior genes? Should Stephen Hawking's sperm be harvested so that we can impregnate women with lower IQ's in order to give their children a fair break? Should we do the same with Arnold Schwarzenegger's sperm so that others could have a better physique?

I want Arnold's muscles and Stephen's brain! Life is so unfair that I wasn't given both! If I can't have it, then we need to cripple Arnold & give Stephen a lobotomy. Makes as much sense as wealth distribution



Last edited by Terlingua on 18 Apr 2012, 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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18 Apr 2012, 6:18 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
marshall wrote:
snapcap wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Why is there such an urge to hate the Better People in our society?

Most of the Proles are dull and stupid.

ruveyn


I'd agree the ones that vote for Republicans are pretty stupid.


The one's that vote for Democrats because they think they are better than the Repub. are just as bad.


I no longer believe the mantra that both parties are "equally bad". The Repubs are definitely pushing a harder and harder ideological line and moving the center farther and farther right. It's so pathetic that the "center" in congress is now way to the right of true public opinion. I blame apathetic progressives for this. Conservatives have the edge because they have much more partisan loyalty and will vote for Mittens even if they would prefer someone even farther right, such is their hatred of Obama. Progressives need to adapt a more pragmatic attitude or things will get much much worse.


Of course the democrats want to be seen as better than the republicans......I still think both the democrats and republicans are pretty much just as bad.


I suppose. But things will just continue to get worse and worse if the only people voting are the far right.