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Things you dislike about your country.

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Shatbat
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05 Jun 2012, 2:05 pm

I've been reading through this thread, and the different points of view, and I've got a broader question. Do you tuys believe that happiness should be archieved by the highest amount of people, or that everyone is responsible for his/her own happiness, and no one else's.

Differences of opinion in the topic at hand would stem from different answers to this question, and so far I've found that if someone firmly believes in one of them, there is no way to convince him otherwise, and no point trying.


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05 Jun 2012, 2:06 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
JWC wrote:

I am more than prepared for someone to make the mistake of attempting to enter my home without my permission. It's my crap, paying thieves not to steal it is blackmail.


Just saying what do you prefer? and wow so now if someone needs help and they only way to get that help is through the government they themselves are a thief? even if I agreed that taxation was the same as theiving I'd veiw the government as the theives...not the people in poverty who don't really have anywhere else to turn but the social safety network that some of the tax money goes towards.


Sweetleaf wrote:
...having someone actually break into your house and steal your crap?


If someone breaks into my house and steals my crap they are a thief. Poverty does not justify theft. Using tax money to keep thieves (rich or poor) from stealing from taxpayers is blackmail.



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05 Jun 2012, 2:10 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I hate that there is nothing like real universal healthcare in this country.
I hate that those with are valued more than those without.
I hate that when the have nots complain about my second point, they are accused of class envy.
I hate that science is seen as the enemy.
I hate that ignorance is considered a virtue.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.....
The true essence of liberalism underneath all the feelgoood rhetoric....


And I'm actually supposed to love those things? What am I saying? Of course you think I should!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


So where's all this tolerance you all are always accusing us of not having?
I'm not seeing much of that in "I hate" over and over...


Sorry, but I draw the line with tolerance when it comes to intolerance and willful ignorance.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 2:13 pm

Shatbat wrote:
I've been reading through this thread, and the different points of view, and I've got a broader question. Do you tuys believe that happiness should be archieved by the highest amount of people, or that everyone is responsible for his/her own happiness, and no one else's.

Differences of opinion in the topic at hand would stem from different answers to this question, and so far I've found that if someone firmly believes in one of them, there is no way to convince him otherwise, and no point trying.


How can a group of strangers ever make another stranger truly happy?



Shatbat
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05 Jun 2012, 2:16 pm

JWC wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JWC wrote:

I am more than prepared for someone to make the mistake of attempting to enter my home without my permission. It's my crap, paying thieves not to steal it is blackmail.


Just saying what do you prefer? and wow so now if someone needs help and they only way to get that help is through the government they themselves are a thief? even if I agreed that taxation was the same as theiving I'd veiw the government as the theives...not the people in poverty who don't really have anywhere else to turn but the social safety network that some of the tax money goes towards.


Sweetleaf wrote:
...having someone actually break into your house and steal your crap?


If someone breaks into my house and steals my crap they are a thief. Poverty does not justify theft. Using tax money to keep thieves (rich or poor) from stealing from taxpayers is blackmail.


Under that very specific case, do you believe home security should be in the hands of each citizen? And in the case you weren't targeted by some poor guy you can fend off with a shotgun or whatever it was an organized mob in a lawless state, better organized and with access to better weaponry, in those cases isn't it better to have a police force providing direct and indirect protection to such threaths?

I'm not keen in the idea of a government, really, but I don't like at all the idea of lawlessness. If I lived in such a world, I'd probably join a group looking for better chances of survival. And I'd willingly invest my time and resources in that group, as the other members should do, to give us all better chances of survival than lone peers. That seems to me as a very rudimentary way of getting taxed, and getting something in return of those taxes. Giving up personal freedom for stability. There are many things wrong with government, but it works, it could be much worse (aren't you guys happy you are not in a dictatorship?), and there really is no decent alternative I can think of.

If someone can think of one, I'd be very interestested to hear it.


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Shatbat
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05 Jun 2012, 2:20 pm

JWC wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
I've been reading through this thread, and the different points of view, and I've got a broader question. Do you tuys believe that happiness should be archieved by the highest amount of people, or that everyone is responsible for his/her own happiness, and no one else's.

Differences of opinion in the topic at hand would stem from different answers to this question, and so far I've found that if someone firmly believes in one of them, there is no way to convince him otherwise, and no point trying.


How can a group of strangers ever make another stranger truly happy?


If one group of people with a lot of resources give up a part of their resources so a stranger can eat and have shelter, then they made that stranger much happier than they would have been had they bought, I don't know, an stereo.

So is it their responsability, they moral duty, to forego their stereo so someone they don't know can eat? That's an specific example of what I meant with my original question.


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JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 2:24 pm

Shatbat wrote:
JWC wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JWC wrote:

I am more than prepared for someone to make the mistake of attempting to enter my home without my permission. It's my crap, paying thieves not to steal it is blackmail.


Just saying what do you prefer? and wow so now if someone needs help and they only way to get that help is through the government they themselves are a thief? even if I agreed that taxation was the same as theiving I'd veiw the government as the theives...not the people in poverty who don't really have anywhere else to turn but the social safety network that some of the tax money goes towards.


Sweetleaf wrote:
...having someone actually break into your house and steal your crap?


If someone breaks into my house and steals my crap they are a thief. Poverty does not justify theft. Using tax money to keep thieves (rich or poor) from stealing from taxpayers is blackmail.


Under that very specific case, do you believe home security should be in the hands of each citizen? And in the case you weren't targeted by some poor guy you can fend off with a shotgun or whatever it was an organized mob in a lawless state, better organized and with access to better weaponry, in those cases isn't it better to have a police force providing direct and indirect protection to such threaths?

I am in support of a police force funded through voluntary means.

I'm not keen in the idea of a government, really, but I don't like at all the idea of lawlessness. If I lived in such a world, I'd probably join a group looking for better chances of survival. And I'd willingly invest my time and resources in that group, as the other members should do, to give us all better chances of survival than lone peers. That seems to me as a very rudimentary way of getting taxed, and getting something in return of those taxes. Giving up personal freedom for stability. There are many things wrong with government, but it works, it could be much worse (aren't you guys happy you are not in a dictatorship?), and there really is no decent alternative I can think of.

If someone can think of one, I'd be very interestested to hear it.


Quote:
Giving up personal freedom for stability.


Quote:
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
-Benjamin Franklin



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05 Jun 2012, 2:31 pm

Shatbat wrote:
If one group of people with a lot of resources give up a part of their resources so a stranger can eat and have shelter, then they made that stranger much happier than they would have been had they bought, I don't know, an stereo.

Sure, they would be happier than they had been, but happiness provided by someone else is a shallow, empty shell of happiness.

So is it their responsability, they moral duty, to forego their stereo so someone they don't know can eat? That's an specific example of what I meant with my original question.


No, absolutely not.



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05 Jun 2012, 2:39 pm

Quote:
I am in support of a police force funded through voluntary means


Fair and reasonable enough. Such police force would not be obliged to help those who refuse to pay for them though, making them prime targets for crime who would be forced to pay up, invest resources in their own protection anyway, or perish.

About Benjamin Franklin's quote, I know he was a great man, but I don't agree with his quote. If I give up freedom to gain security, then I deserve just that, less freedom and more security. The quote may seem inspiring and grand and stuff, but it is ultimately unrealistic.

JWC wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
If one group of people with a lot of resources give up a part of their resources so a stranger can eat and have shelter, then they made that stranger much happier than they would have been had they bought, I don't know, an stereo.

Sure, they would be happier than they had been, but happiness provided by someone else is a shallow, empty shell of happiness.

So is it their responsability, they moral duty, to forego their stereo so someone they don't know can eat? That's an specific example of what I meant with my original question.


No, absolutely not.


And that was it. I believe it would be hard, or even impossible, to convince you otherwise. And if you tried to convince someone who thinks differently, you'd similarly fail. So in this issue, and any other issue stemming from this one, it's pointless to argue too much, as there won't be a resolution.


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JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 2:53 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Quote:
I am in support of a police force funded through voluntary means


Fair and reasonable enough. Such police force would not be obliged to help those who refuse to pay for them though, making them prime targets for crime who would be forced to pay up, invest resources in their own protection anyway, or perish.

Is there ever any escape from that?

About Benjamin Franklin's quote, I know he was a great man, but I don't agree with his quote. If I give up freedom to gain security, then I deserve just that, less freedom and more security. The quote may seem inspiring and grand and stuff, but is uñtimately unrealistic.

I think you're missing the point of the statement. Franklin is saying that freedom and security are inseparable. Without freedom, security is a moot point. Trading freedom for security is like putting an alarm system on an empty house.

Quote:
No, absolutely not.


And that was it. I believe it would be hard, or even impossible, to convince you otherwise. And if you tried to convince someone who thinks differently, you'd similarly fail. So in this issue, and any other issue stemming from this one, it's pointless to argue too much, as there won't be a resolution.


I agree. I'm just here fartin' around.



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05 Jun 2012, 3:02 pm

JWC wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
-the government should get its money from taxes, and since the government is kind of in charge of keeping the country running it is kind of their job to have programs in place to help those in poverty.

Where do the taxes come from?

-I think humans are entitled to basic things like food, water, access to healthcare treatment and shelter to suggest those are priveliges only for those who can afford it is disgusting to me. Disagree if you want my perspective on that wont be changing though.

Isn't it slavery to force some one to work without compensation? Where are all of those entitlements supposed to come from, and who is supposed to supply them without expecting to be compensated?

-And yes if the government refuses to help its citizens when those citizens are in need of their assistance, that is like saying 'screw you.' what the hell do we have a government for if its not supposed to have any responsibility towards it's citizens? Might as well overthrow it at that point.


A government cannot provide what it does not have. Stealing from A to give to B, is nothing more than pretending to have something that it really doesn't. The only thing a gov't can do is protect the rights of its citizens. It cannot perform any other role without violating said rights itself. There is no such thing as the right to violate the rights of another.


Ok well the government does have money, and some of that money comes from taxes...I don't care how many times you or ruven for that matter repeat over and over and over and over again that taxation is stealing. Get it through your skull not everyone agrees with you and repeating it is not going to change that.

If you feel your rights are being violated why don't you take that up with the government? seriously blaming it on those in poverty for using programs availible to help them from the government is a terrible approach.


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05 Jun 2012, 3:07 pm

JWC wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JWC wrote:

I am more than prepared for someone to make the mistake of attempting to enter my home without my permission. It's my crap, paying thieves not to steal it is blackmail.


Just saying what do you prefer? and wow so now if someone needs help and they only way to get that help is through the government they themselves are a thief? even if I agreed that taxation was the same as theiving I'd veiw the government as the theives...not the people in poverty who don't really have anywhere else to turn but the social safety network that some of the tax money goes towards.


Sweetleaf wrote:
...having someone actually break into your house and steal your crap?


If someone breaks into my house and steals my crap they are a thief. Poverty does not justify theft. Using tax money to keep thieves (rich or poor) from stealing from taxpayers is blackmail.


Ok well I don't think accepting help from government programs is even close to breaking into your house and stealing your crap. Just saying its kind of common sense the more desperate someone is the more likely they are to resort to things they might not normally do...because humans have this weird drive not to just lay down and die.

Basically if people can not have some assistance when they need it they get desperate, I am sure under the right circumstances even you would steal....but then that is a bit irrelevent to me since I still do not agree that taxation is stealing.


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05 Jun 2012, 3:08 pm

Quote:
Is there ever any escape from that?


I don't think so. It would be a matter of doing it yourself or paying someone else to do it, which ever is more efficient and suits the person's preferences. If not being able to make that choice is what bothers you then yeah, I agree. It would be inefficient for our bureaucracy to keep track of those who pay police taxes and those who don't, so they just make everyone do it, and I don't see a way around that.

Quote:
I agree. I'm just here fartin' around


So we agree on something :P
Yeah, I'm probably doing that as well. I enjoy civil and stimulating discussions, especially since I got past the idea that there was always a single truth and a single, right point of view, that either them or me would reach eventually.


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05 Jun 2012, 3:10 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok well the government does have money, and some of that money comes from taxes...I don't care how many times you or ruven for that matter repeat over and over and over and over again that taxation is stealing. Get it through your skull not everyone agrees with you and repeating it is not going to change that.

All of the money that the gov't has comes from taxes. Ownership is not a matter of opinion. I don't agree with what you say, but I certainly agree that you should have the right to say it.

If you feel your rights are being violated why don't you take that up with the government? seriously blaming it on those in poverty for using programs availible to help them from the government is a terrible approach.


I'm not blaming the poor, why do you keep saying that?



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05 Jun 2012, 3:16 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok well I don't think accepting help from government programs is even close to breaking into your house and stealing your crap. Just saying its kind of common sense the more desperate someone is the more likely they are to resort to things they might not normally do...because humans have this weird drive not to just lay down and die.

You are the one that said people will break into houses and steal my crap if they don't get my tax money. You made the association, not I. Why is it right for people to steal from others just because they are desperate? There are plenty of other choices than crime.

Basically if people can not have some assistance when they need it they get desperate, I am sure under the right circumstances even you would steal....but then that is a bit irrelevent to me since I still do not agree that taxation is stealing.



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05 Jun 2012, 3:16 pm

JWC wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

If you feel your rights are being violated why don't you take that up with the government? seriously blaming it on those in poverty for using programs availible to help them from the government is a terrible approach.


I'm not blaming the poor, why do you keep saying that?


Its kind of the impression I got from the following:

Quote:
What I dislike most about my country is that a large portion of it's population thinks that the "right to life" means that they have the right to force strangers to pay for the food they eat and water they drink.


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